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Frank Hovis

LGB, LGBT, or T

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This has been mentioned within other threads but I think it deserves its own thread.

 

LGB covers people who believe that your sex is your birth sex and are partly or wholly attracted to people of the same sex.

T covers people who believe that they can choose their sex (termed in this case gender) based upon their conviction that they are not the sex that they were born.

The two things seem very different to me and to a lot of people who are LGB.

 

The equality charity Stonewall has been campaigning for LGB rights for decades but only as recently as 2015, on the decision of one woman - Ruth Hunt then chief executive - added the T. There was considerable opposition at the time and still is.

 

Quote

Stonewall historically campaigned only on lesbian, gay and bisexual issues until chief executive Ruth Hunt led the adoption of a transgender-inclusive stance in 2015, recruiting a Trans Advisory Board and beginning to campaign for reforms to bolster legal recognition of trans people. The charity recently adopted the slogan ‘Trans Women are Women, Get Over It!’ on merchandise.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/02/16/stonewall-announces-it-will-now-campaign-for-trans-rights-too/

 

IMHO LGB is reality and T, whilst it can be reality in the case of genuine intersex, generally isn't and the two have no place together.

 

The happy rainbow flags and Pride events are there to suggest that LGBT is one big happy family but white gay men have been excluded from university LGBT societies ("too privileged") and the mumsnet feminist section (and there feminist is very much a synonym for man-hating lesbian; a meaning that it doesn't usually have) section is stridently anti-T.

The reality of a flag like this:

spacer.png

Is more properly this:

spacer.png

 

I think that the propaganda campaign has been so strong that people genuinely do not realise this and think that it's one big rainbow spectrum of happy faces that they are churlish not to support; as with that Co-op strawberry advert featuruing a MtF trans which is as likely to piss off somebody who is LGB as it is somebody straight.

 

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I think you have a valid point.

I'd argue that there is such a thing as transgender (ie people do feel 'wrong'), but there's no reason to put it in LGB as it isn't a sexuality thing, it is a gender identity thing (ie, completely unrelated).  It isn't even clear if trans folk are 'gay', in that I understand that a good %age of trans still go for their original sexuality (ie, Male->Female will fancy females).

It is also a 'what to do about it' thing.  For LGB there's no reason to 'cure' them, because it is possible to be very happy and gay in today's society.  But for T there's considerable doubt that actually transitioning makes for any actual relief (because what is transitioned to isn't sufficiently feminine) -- in which case cure (psychotherapy to come to terms with birth gender) might well be the best way forwards (which is exactly wrong for LGB).

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My perception, and it is only that, is that Stonewall, having successfully campaigned for LGB rights and with that battle not entirely, but largely won, needed a new reason to exist. The "T". As Frank points out, these are not the same thing.

Changing sex is impossible, but being perceived as the opposite sex is achievable sometimes. You cannot forcibly override what people see and how their brains assess the sex of the person in front of them. Sexual attraction is almost always based on biology. Since the purpose of life is to replicate, it's no surprise that we always perform a subconscious assessment. To see if they might be a suitor. It is not some form of "wickedness".

The "battle" for "acceptance of gay people" was largely fought on the basis that such activities imperil nobody. This led to a big Commons debate where some politicians would argue that "gay marriage undermines my own heterosexual marriage" which I think many would see as simple bigotry and "clutching at straws". Put the issues out there and debate them. There is nothing to fear. Spend a little more time worrying about what you're doing and a little less time worrying about what others are doing.

The battle for "T", encompassing those two groups above, is different because it is in conflict with other rights. Rights of women, in particular, and especially within women's sport.

Biological men have advantages over women in some sports. To deny this is simply ridiculous.

That denial comes about because trans-women are women, apparently, and so there's "nothing to see here". All dissenters from this view are bigots.

Except they're not. They're so demonstrably and obviously correct that this is a farce. The activism is shouty, accusative, lacking any form of nuance, and those are the battle-lines.

 

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We have Trans people in Spoons.

They look like Yorkshire Miners on a night out at Batley Variety Club.

They are the same whether shopping at ASDA, or standing at a bus stop. They don't dress up for parties, they live their life as Trans.

Far removed from Pose, or Billy Porter.

We have local business people who are Trans, totally respected and accepted. 

Yes, people take the piss, and they give as good as they get. 

None of them are activists, campaigners, or Pride marching attention seekers.

Until their recent demise, a tragic fatal accident driving a tractor on their farm, one local business owner, owned hotels and North Wales football club, living their life as a woman, married to a man, a very much larger than life character.

Nothing to do with MSM LGBT stereotype whatsoever. 

Then we have Martina Navratilova, high profile lesbian, making eye opening comments about Trans issues.

I'm not feeling the love for T from the LGBT community, maybe it is time to splinter apart.

Separate LGB fromT, Q, and I ?

 

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Posted (edited)

I think you are correct Mark. There is simply too much money in it for them to walk away saying "we got what we achieved". That isn't going to pay for their mortgages and expenses.

It's the same with ASH, the anti smoking charity, now turning its gaze to vaping even though this is (currently known to be, in the absence of any evidence otherwise) about 99% safer than smoking cigarettes.  Any sane group would agree that they did well, let's all do something else.

I may be jaded by the entire thing, but IMO it is just about keeping the moneytree growing for most charities and activists.

Edited by spunko

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

This has been mentioned within other threads but I think it deserves its own thread.

 

LGB covers people who believe that your sex is your birth sex and are partly or wholly attracted to people of the same sex.

T covers people who believe that they can choose their sex (termed in this case gender) based upon their conviction that they are not the sex that they were born.

The two things seem very different to me and to a lot of people who are LGB.

 

The equality charity Stonewall has been campaigning for LGB rights for decades but only as recently as 2015, on the decision of one woman - Ruth Hunt then chief executive - added the T. There was considerable opposition at the time and still is.

 

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/02/16/stonewall-announces-it-will-now-campaign-for-trans-rights-too/

 

IMHO LGB is reality and T, whilst it can be reality in the case of genuine intersex, generally isn't and the two have no place together.

 

The happy rainbow flags and Pride events are there to suggest that LGBT is one big happy family but white gay men have been excluded from university LGBT societies ("too privileged") and the mumsnet feminist section (and there feminist is very much a synonym for man-hating lesbian; a meaning that it doesn't usually have) section is stridently anti-T.

The reality of a flag like this:

spacer.png

Is more properly this:

spacer.png

 

I think that the propaganda campaign has been so strong that people genuinely do not realise this and think that it's one big rainbow spectrum of happy faces that they are churlish not to support; as with that Co-op strawberry advert featuruing a MtF trans which is as likely to piss off somebody who is LGB as it is somebody straight.

 

 

Very interesting.  Is it now just becoming a numbers game.  The more people they can include the more power and control they exert.  The scrum in the gif would most likely regroup against any "straight" people who walked in the room. 

Also an interesting point about gay white men being excluded (along with white men in general).  I expect T white men (M to F) are more accepted if they dress like women and T white women (F to M) are more excluded if they dress like men.

Edited by twocents

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What's especially worrying in this arena is the growing number of children being given medical treatments, in particular, to delay the onset of puberty so as to prevent the body from developing naturally and gaining more characteristics of its birth-sex.

One of the things that I wonder about is the number of gay children being given false promises that they can change their sex. "If we can't fix the brain, we can fix the body". No, we cannot. With whom will that person have a relationship in later life? The brain fries trying to work this through. Of course, a child won't be thinking about those things. Not yet.

Just noticed the incongruence in one paragraph in my post. It got a last-minute edit. I'll probably post more later about this - I mentioned I'd spent some time attempting to speak to people in this arena - eventually, with some success - and felt I'd gained a deeper understanding of what is going on here.

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25 minutes ago, Bedrag Justesen said:

We have Trans people in Spoons.

They look like Yorkshire Miners on a night out at Batley Variety Club.

They are the same whether shopping at ASDA, or standing at a bus stop. They don't dress up for parties, they live their life as Trans.

Far removed from Pose, or Billy Porter.

We have local business people who are Trans, totally respected and accepted. 

Yes, people take the piss, and they give as good as they get. 

None of them are activists, campaigners, or Pride marching attention seekers.

Until their recent demise, a tragic fatal accident driving a tractor on their farm, one local business owner, owned hotels and North Wales football club, living their life as a woman, married to a man, a very much larger than life character.

Nothing to do with MSM LGBT stereotype whatsoever. 

Then we have Martina Navratilova, high profile lesbian, making eye opening comments about Trans issues.

I'm not feeling the love for T from the LGBT community, maybe it is time to splinter apart.

Separate LGB fromT, Q, and I ?

 

Those people are similar to the person I know but all of that is simply "live and let live" which most of us do if the person is reasonable about it.

It is however an enormous leap from being "tolerant and inclusive" as most of us are to actually and fundamentally accepting that a man is a woman or vice versa and then enshrining this in law.

That's the aim of this T campaigning and there are multiple examples on the trans madness thread of the insanity of this approach.  Yet government and the courts seem determined to drag us over that particular cliff edge where reality becomes secondary to personal claims of identity and it becomes a "hate crime" to call an obvious biological man a man.

I try to refer to the trans at work as "they" and actually felt guilty when I accidentally said "he" when stood next to them because I don't wish to upset them; I can't however bring myself to refer to them as "she" because that seems so incongruous and false when they are very clearly not.

I agree with Mark and Spunko that at root the main reason for LGB acquiring the T is that with widespread, if not total, LGB acceptance a lot of people with highly paid charity careers in the LGB sector were about to find themself on the dole and so they took the T shilling to see themselves through to retirement.

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Posted (edited)

The T's should start their own LGB movement as there must be T's who are L, T's who are G and T's who are B

One of my middle sons friends' dad is becoming a T, but I'm not sure if he is therefore G.

If he becomes a woman and then has sex with men, that would make him straight though wouldn't it?

confusing stuff.

Edited by Reck B

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Reck B said:

The T's should start their own LGB movement.

 

There must be T's who are L, T's who are G and T's who are B

One of my middles sons dads is becoming a T, but I'm not sure if he is therefore G.

If he becomes a woman and has sex with men, that would make him straight though wouldn't it?

Exactly.  The two things are in opposition.

Somebody asked the MtF T at work at a works' party and surprisingly they said that they fancied women.  So they weren't gay but by transitioning to a woman they will then be a lesbian.  Very strange.

Anyway moot point as their odd personality (I have never met somebody who is so hugely socially awkward and yet does not realise it so I can only assume a total lack of close friendships) and lack of personal hygiene make it highly theoretical in their case.

Edited by Frank Hovis
tippity typo

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7 minutes ago, Reck B said:

If he becomes a woman and then has sex with men, that would make him straight though wouldn't it?

This is where my brain just fries itself trying to think about it.

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Just now, The Masked Tulip said:

It can often be a shock to trans people that when they take hormones their sexual interests change. MTF's suddenly start fancying males and vice versa for the FTM's.

Is there any research on that?

I've always assumed that this did not happen. Indeed, that it could not happen.

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24 minutes ago, Reck B said:

The T's should start their own LGB movement as there must be T's who are L, T's who are G and T's who are B

One of my middle sons friends' dad is becoming a T, but I'm not sure if he is therefore G.

If he becomes a woman and then has sex with men, that would make him straight though wouldn't it?

confusing stuff.

I’m all for G&T. When can we start the bottle?  The sun isn’t quite over the yardarm. :)

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I have no idea on any of this. I have known some MtF at workplaces, and I don't ask them about it or comment, as long as  they can use a mutimeter, and change out a disk drive

1 minute ago, One percent said:

I’m all for G&T. When can we start the bottle?  The sun isn’t quite over the yardarm. :)

Choose a diffenent longitude.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Those people are similar to the person I know but all of that is simply "live and let live" which most of us do if the person is reasonable about it.

It is however an enormous leap from being "tolerant and inclusive" as most of us are to actually and fundamentally accepting that a man is a woman or vice versa and then enshrining this in law.

That's the aim of this T campaigning and there are multiple examples on the trans madness thread of the insanity of this approach.  Yet government and the courts seem determined to drag us over that particular cliff edge where reality becomes secondary to personal claims of identity and it becomes a "hate crime" to call an obvious biological man a man.

I try to refer to the trans at work as "they" and actually felt guilty when I accidentally said "he" when stood next to them because I don't wish to upset them; I can't however bring myself to refer to them as "she" because that seems so incongruous and false when they are very clearly not.

I agree with Mark and Spunko that at root the main reason for LGB acquiring the T is that with widespread, if not total, LGB acceptance a lot of people with highly paid charity careers in the LGB sector were about to find themself on the dole and so they took the T shilling to see themselves through to retirement.

In the past it would be considered a bit of an insult if directed to a man although often said in jest.  To a trans person it still seems a bit patronising and maybe it shouldn't.  I suppose we'll just have to be obliged to become used to using the word although I doubt it will become natural for generations if ever.

I suspect the expression "it suits you to a T" will now have to become obsolete :D

Edited by twocents

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Posted (edited)

 

@DTMark

I doubt it - but there might be some small studies out there somewhere. Just mostly anecdotal stuff that I have observed on blogs, Trans youtube videos - of which there are hundreds, perhaps thousands - where Trans people basically make a video blog of their transition experiences. They talk about the physical and mental changes that hormones have on them. It is quite fascinating if the Mind is of interest.

The hormones really alter the brain chemistry and how an individual thinks, responds, acts and perceives the world. Subtle changes in how smells and colours are perceived through to dreams and which gender they then subsequently are attracted to.

There is a growing trend of MTF's now who do not have their genitalia removed / turned into a vagina as the thought is that this will stop them going from fancying women to fancying males if that is already their preference.

The MTF Trans community is full of sub-groups who all basically hate one another. Real anger. Those who go for full surgery are adamant that anyone who does not is not Trans but more of a Tranny. Ditto anyone who identifies as MTF and who expresses any interest in BDSM. For decades, here in the UK, anyone seeing a shrink about their gender identity, if they mentioned any kind of kink, they would be labelled a fetishist and denied being put on the road to hormones and surgery.

Back in the 90's I researched a series for ITV on this subject, speaking with many, many Trans people, doctors, surgeons, etc. At times I was fascinated but occasionally I was crossing my legs and feeling a tad queasy. It is a very complex subject and very difficult to put people into boxes... which often society likes to do.

I managed to offend, without my knowledge, a militant Trans activist in SF. For years afterwards I would find articles online abusing me - all because I innocently asked whether there was a submissive streak in MTF's.

Edited by The Masked Tulip

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Interesting. Those disagreements make me think of "purity". A set of standards are applied by which others should be judged. How ironic.

Makes me think of those press articles questioning whether Zayn Malik was a "proper Muslim". Because he appeared to like smoking and getting s***-faced. FFS. By all means discuss whether that's a positive role model if you have to, but "proper Muslim?" - give it a rest. Who cares.

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So, how many trans people are there?

Can't help but think they are over represented in 'modern culture'.

Also, after watching Martina Navratilovas program there are different levels: full (op done); taking treatment pre op; nothing done at all (yet) but feel like I am something else.  

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