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spygirl

UK Farming

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Listeing to some brexit drivel - no EE slaves anymore, no free money for pissing around.

Apparently the UK farmers are the 'best inthe world'

Just like our civil service, who are dead good at everything. Apart from computers, which cause them lots of problems.

Back to bets farmers ever.

I was reminded of how good UK farmers are

https://www.donateblood.com.au/faq/vcjd

disease (vCJD) – I can’t give blood as I lived in the UK for six months between 1980-1996. When will I be able to donate?

The Blood Service currently can’t take blood donations from people who lived in the UK for six months or more from 1980–1996.

This is related to the fatal variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD, the human form of the bovine condition sometimes known as ‘mad cow disease’):

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, spygirl said:

Listeing to some brexit drivel - no EE slaves anymore, no free money for pissing around.

Apparently the UK farmers are the 'best inthe world'

Just like our civil service, who are dead good at everything. Apart from computers, which cause them lots of problems.

Back to bets farmers ever.

I was reminded of how good UK farmers are

https://www.donateblood.com.au/faq/vcjd

disease (vCJD) – I can’t give blood as I lived in the UK for six months between 1980-1996. When will I be able to donate?

The Blood Service currently can’t take blood donations from people who lived in the UK for six months or more from 1980–1996.

This is related to the fatal variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (vCJD, the human form of the bovine condition sometimes known as ‘mad cow disease’):

You can't blame vCJD on farmers, you can blame it on the feed supply industry. Farmers were at the end of the chain. I was working on a dairy farm at the time. I'd open the milking parlour door and see cows drop to the ground and piss themsleves as they died infront of me, 2 or 3 a night, not even the vets knew what was going on and it was a hell of a distressing time to not know why the herd was being decimated. The desire for cheap food and driving down costs at every opportunity saw feed manufacturers cutting corners to find protein sources to boost dairy cake while keeping the price low to supply the supermarkets with loss leaders.

 

 

Edited by Hopeful

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Hopeful said:

You can't blame vCJD on farmers, you can blame it on the feed supply industry. Farmers were at the end of the chain. I was working on a dairy farm at the time. I'd open the milking parlour door and see cows drop to the ground and piss themsleves as they died infront of me, 2 or 3 a night, not even the vets knew what was going on and it was a hell of a distressing time to not know why the herd was being decimated. The desire for cheap food and driving down costs at every opportunity saw feed manufacturers cutting corners to find protein sources to boost dairy cake while keeping the price low to supply the supermarkets with loss leaders.

 

 

However much you cut costs to the bone it's very difficult for livestock farmers to make money without subsidy. The subsidy is about the net profit and that's probably family farms with no external labour.  Feeding stuffs is a big input, but repairs and renewals( particulary tractor/ land rover etc. maintenance and depreciation.. just horrendous). Other biggies, veterinary and medicines.

The livestock farmer at the end of the chain is 100% supported by subsidy. No doubt the industries supplying the inputs make decent profits. Many farmers are millionaires on paper of course, land.

If we all became veggie, arable is profitable, then there would still ptobably need to be stewardship grants for hill country.

Edited by crashmonitor

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

However much you cut costs to the bone it's very difficult for livestock farmers to make money without subsidy. The subsidy is about the net profit and that's probably family farms with no external labour.  Feeding stuffs is a big input, but repairs and renewals( particulary tractor/ land rover etc. maintenance and depreciation.. just horrendous). Other biggies, veterinary and medicines.

The livestock farmer at the end of the chain is 100% supported by subsidy. No doubt the industries supplying the inputs make decent profits. Many farmers are millionaires on paper of course, land.

If we all became veggie, arable is profitable, then there would still ptobably need to be stewardship grants for hill country.

 

But it might be possible for farmers to make money if we put as much value (and were prepared to pay as much profit) on food that keepsus alive as we do a pair of Nike Air Jordan's or iPhone 10

Edited by Hopeful

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5 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

But it might be possible for farmers to make money if we put as much value (and were prepared to pay as much profit) on food that keepsus alive as we do a pair of Nike Air Jordan's or iPhone 10

Farmers dont make money as theyve chased subs to bid up land prices.

Theres also the issue with farming being a 1st sons career rather than a job for someone with ability.

The issue with feed stock is not farmer v feedcos. A farmer can take an jnformed choice about what feed us used. Feeding rendered down cows to cows would only appeal to an idiot.

Again, uk farmers face same issues as all other farmers, who didnt make that girmless mistake.

Equally foot n mouth - gormless idiots moving animals all round country, ignoring basic bio security procedure or any sensible animal tracking.

Uk livestock farning is riddled with idiots.

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6 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

But it might be possible for farmers to make money if we put as much value (and were prepared to pay as much profit) on food that keepsus alive as we do a pair of Nike Air Jordan's or iPhone 10

That's a very big "we" right there; worthy of a journalist.

Food is a global market and can be produced much more cheaply than by small labour intensive British farms.  Paying extra will serve to subsidise and embed the huge inefficiency that exists.

An elderly father and daughter ran, badly, a small farm near me. They subsidised it by buying milk and selling it including to my company.

We didn't receive a bill for months and I mentioned it to her. It turned out her father did the billing, he had died, so it wasn't happening but she continued to do her "job" of buying and delivering the milk.

She was prosecuted for animal welfare last year because the farm was so badly run.

This little vignette sums up to me most of British farming.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Farmers dont make money as theyve chased subs to bid up land prices.

Theres also the issue with farming being a 1st sons career rather than a job for someone with ability.

The issue with feed stock is not farmer v feedcos. A farmer can take an jnformed choice about what feed us used. Feeding rendered down cows to cows would only appeal to an idiot.

Again, uk farmers face same issues as all other farmers, who didnt make that girmless mistake.

Equally foot n mouth - gormless idiots moving animals all round country, ignoring basic bio security procedure or any sensible animal tracking.

Uk livestock farning is riddled with idiots.

 

Free money, whether bank lending for mortgages  or for EU subsidies,  distorts prices and chases up prices an fucks up the 'industry'.

Farming was always a first son's career from the age of time, you need a knowledge of nature to enter farmng, as we have become an urbanised species the barrer to entry by others has grown - it's wet, dirty and misubderstood - that barrier now includes land prices of course.

Farmers had no clue they were feeding down rendered animals to animals. In once case (the farm I was working on) the source of protein in the cake was from plywood - because the glue in the plywood was from animal hooves. On the bag it just tells you the protein content. In an effort to make a profit you secured the best deal (cheapest) cake that you could. The farmer was at the end of the line.

Foot and mouth was made much worse due to "bed and breakfasting" to scam subsidies - agreed. Gormless and greedy farmers on the periphery of good practise.

Yes there are idiots in farming.

Edited by Hopeful

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1 minute ago, Hopeful said:

 

Free money, whether bank lending formortgages  or EU subsidies distorts prices and chases up prices.

Farming was always a first son's career from the age of time, you need a knowledge of nature to enter farmng, as we have become an urbanised species the barrer to entry by others has grown - it's wet, dirty and misubderstood - that barrier now includes land prices of course.

Farmers had no clue they were feeding down rendered animals to animals. In once case (the farm I was working on) the source of protein in the cake was from plywood - because the glue in the plywood was from animal hooves. On the bag it just tells you the protein content. In an effort to make a profit you secured the best deal (cheapest) cake that you could. The farmer was at the end of the line.

Foot and mouth was made much worse due to "bed and breakfasting" to scam subsidies - agreed. Gormless and greedy farmers on the periphery of good practise.

Yes there are idiots.

You need to be good at farming.

For livestock - or dairy - thats basically comes down to growing grass and sorting your market prices out.

Good farmers know their inputs. Only an idiot would buy vague feedstock.

Mad cow would have gutted a normal business.

Instead, they werebailed out and caused footnmouth 20 years later.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, spygirl said:

You need to be good at farming.

For livestock - or dairy - thats basically comes down to growing grass and sorting your market prices out.

Good farmers know their inputs. Only an idiot would buy vague feedstock.

Mad cow would have gutted a normal business.

Instead, they werebailed out and caused footnmouth 20 years later.

 

The feedstock wasn't vague - it came from one of the leading international suppliers.

It will happen again. Plenty of people were happy to buy lasagnes for a £1

 

Edited by Hopeful

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8 minutes ago, One percent said:

On a tangential tack, I have seen cows in fields this year. Quite a few and the first time since the foot and mouth. Are farmers moving back into cattle?

Dunno, it's all sheep round here. Well very few sheep really as they're building houses on anything green.

My mum has moved and so I no longer have her to ask what's in the field next to her house. It hadn't been cattle since about 1990 though

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, One percent said:

On a tangential tack, I have seen cows in fields this year. Quite a few and the first time since the foot and mouth. Are farmers moving back into cattle?

About the same as normal in my area. It is peak season just now, they are in the shed for about 6 months from December to May. Rather precarious for walkers with cows having calves at foot, especially when the calves are sitting straight in front of the stile. Did the mother go for me, she sure did.

In inner village locations sometimes you don't have the option of going around cows other than climbing into somebody's garden to avoid a stile. ( cows are becoming more aggressive because they don't see too many people anymore..  public on treadmills in gyms I guess)

 

https://killercows.co.uk/

Edited by crashmonitor

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Down to bad government. They should be legislating to stop the use of chemicals which decimate the countryside, and to protect animal welfare, but doing anything would be too much like work for the politicians.

There's no reason why the UK couldn't be 100% organic and free range, becoming a centre of high quality high value food. Imagine if you could be sure any UK produce you bought at the supermarket to feed your children would actually be good for them. Healthy children and healthy adults. Or just keep feeding everyone crap and putting them on disability benefits.

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34 minutes ago, AlfredTheLittle said:

Down to bad government. They should be legislating to stop the use of chemicals which decimate the countryside, and to protect animal welfare, but doing anything would be too much like work for the politicians.

There's no reason why the UK couldn't be 100% organic and free range, becoming a centre of high quality high value food. Imagine if you could be sure any UK produce you bought at the supermarket to feed your children would actually be good for them. Healthy children and healthy adults. Or just keep feeding everyone crap and putting them on disability benefits.

When you think about the levels of mismanagement and incompetence across a whole range of issues, they would of the establishment should be taken out at dawn and shot. Start afresh with a whole new lot and a whole new system of government 

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3 hours ago, crashmonitor said:

About the same as normal in my area. It is peak season just now, they are in the shed for about 6 months from December to May. Rather precarious for walkers with cows having calves at foot, especially when the calves are sitting straight in front of the stile. Did the mother go for me, she sure did.

In inner village locations sometimes you don't have the option of going around cows other than climbing into somebody's garden to avoid a stile. ( cows are becoming more aggressive because they don't see too many people anymore..  public on treadmills in gyms I guess)

 

https://killercows.co.uk/

As a rights of way user / dog walker and used to being on farms I about know where I am with cows, but there seems to be a new thing of keeping herds of horses together and they are difficult to read. One or two in a field are normally no bother but twenty (with foals) is a bit much.

WRT to farming, it has gone from being broadly unchanged low material input / high labour systems for millennia to high input / low labour systems within (just about) living memory. There are still people around that can remember ploughing by horse and harvesting by hand, milking by hand and moving livestock to market / abattoir / train station on foot. Huge quantities of diesel are necessary to today's livestock (producing feed, hay and straw and moving animals) and arable (ground prep, planting, spraying, harvesting, drying, transport) systems. Farming is complex and differs around the country, but food security should be possible in the UK and with such a fertile land and climate, we could be leading the world in developing productive sustainable methods that are not so reliant on fuel. A combination of old local knowledge and new technology could well prove to be more profitable and make it a stand alone industry that doesn't require subsidies to survive. Tricky thing is that it requires a responsible and competent body to advise in such a way as to benefit both the industry and the nation and I don't think we can rely on the government for that.

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6 hours ago, Hopeful said:

 

The feedstock wasn't vague - it came from one of the leading international suppliers.

It will happen again. Plenty of people were happy to buy lasagnes for a £1

 

You are arguing here with the forums No.1 expert on everything;)

6 hours ago, Hopeful said:

 

The feedstock wasn't vague - it came from one of the leading international suppliers.

It will happen again. Plenty of people were happy to buy lasagnes for a £1

 

There was significant opposition to the use of Animal protein in cattle food and especially the lowering of treatment temperatures. 

My professional institute (Chartered Institute of Environmental Health) were very vocal on this in the late 80's. 

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17 minutes ago, Kurt Barlow said:

You are arguing here with the forums No.1 expert on everything;)

There was significant opposition to the use of Animal protein in cattle food and especially the lowering of treatment temperatures. 

My professional institute (Chartered Institute of Environmental Health) were very vocal on this in the late 80's. 

Agree

Was temperature an issue though, given the thermal robustness of the prion protein? I suspect it was just the source material that was the problem rather than the reduction in temperature.

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7 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Agree

Was temperature an issue though, given the thermal robustness of the prion protein? I suspect it was just the source material that was the problem rather than the reduction in temperature.

I remember it as the thatcher government lowering the temperatures, timeline below - lower temp and pressures to suit a continuous process instead of batch

https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/1996/eirv23n26-19960621/eirv23n26-19960621_028-how_thatcherism_led_to_bse.pdf

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16 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Agree

Was temperature an issue though, given the thermal robustness of the prion protein? I suspect it was just the source material that was the problem rather than the reduction in temperature.

Well the issue seemed to arise after the lowering of the temperature requirements (as per Ashes point) so its reasonable to assume this was a significant causal factor. 

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3 hours ago, Hopeful said:

Agree

Was temperature an issue though, given the thermal robustness of the prion protein? I suspect it was just the source material that was the problem rather than the reduction in temperature.

I dont think temperature matters much with prions.

They are new well understood.

Feeding meat to a animals breaks the number one rule thats kicked around for millenia - you dont eat carnivores.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Kurt Barlow said:

You are arguing here with the forums No.1 expert on everything;)

There was significant opposition to the use of Animal protein in cattle food and especially the lowering of treatment temperatures. 

My professional institute (Chartered Institute of Environmental Health) were very vocal on this in the late 80's. 

Interesting (or not) that government chose to ignore experts at the behest of business. Same as it ever was 

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44 minutes ago, One percent said:

Interesting (or not) that government chose to ignore experts at the behest of business. Same as it ever was 

Depends if the scientific advice is convenient, or not

 

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10 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

That's a very big "we" right there; worthy of a journalist.

Food is a global market and can be produced much more cheaply than by small labour intensive British farms.  Paying extra will serve to subsidise and embed the huge inefficiency that exists.

An elderly father and daughter ran, badly, a small farm near me. They subsidised it by buying milk and selling it including to my company.

We didn't receive a bill for months and I mentioned it to her. It turned out her father did the billing, he had died, so it wasn't happening but she continued to do her "job" of buying and delivering the milk.

She was prosecuted for animal welfare last year because the farm was so badly run.

This little vignette sums up to me most of British farming.

Depends.

You can run a few cows n sheep for meat.

Field or common grazing. Fine. However youll not make a living, which is tge problem - subs pay livestock farmers to run hobby business.

Youve also got a big change in the size of beef cattle. Go back 50 years and small holders were still using the old, small breeds.

In the 70s farmers started introducing continentals breeds which massively increased size of cattle.

Fine show piccies from 50s and the aberdeen angus  bulls will be up to a farmers shoulders.

Today, theyll be much bigger.

You get old farmers getting misty eyed about breeding do they buy a bull. It would be safer to get a bengal tiger. So you end up with a 70yo on the of a rope to a 1 ton bull thats just turned bad. Well bulls tutn bad, they really go fucking mean.

 

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