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Defence against Miss Floozy


VeryMeanReversion

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VeryMeanReversion

 

Wrote this on the main dosbods thread but swissy wanted more info on a new thread.

My eldest is 16, thinking of setting him up with his own house when he's 21/22 but I cant do it in his name as Miss Floozy can claim half or more at her convenience. I'm investigating workarounds.

This may seem cynical but my cousin has just been stung for £100K+ after a 4-year marriage with no kids, basically the inheritance he had from his Dad has just gone to Miss Floozy.

Optimum strategy may be to appear to have lots of assets and have the benefit of them but not actually own them in any way (including rights to them under trusts - which courts can take into account).

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To give a bit more context,  I've seen many examples in my extended family of the males getting completely stuffed. No females were ever worse off after a split, either keeping the house, getting lots of £ or marrying Mr Millionaire.

1. Top job, divorced, no job, stuffed for next 15 years.   Worked back up, married, divorced, stuffed.   Pretty blondes in swimsuits was his weakness. Paid for the private schooling for wife 2, several cars and a pension for her but they only lived together for months. 

2. Good job, builds lovely house for wife, wife has affair. He's stuffed.

3. Married, has 3 kids. Wife has affair. He's stuffed. Moves to Cyprus to be able to afford somewhere to live.

4. Close to retirement, wife has affair. He's stuffed.  My brother and I pay up so he can keep the house.

5. (original example). Married 4 years, no kids, got stuffed for £100K+. Became alcholic (rehab etc) but now turning it around (sober for a year and back in a good job)

6. First wife lovely but died, second wife tried to kill him (annulled), third wife lovely.  After wife 3, has had a live-in house keeper that changed the locks and wouldn't let him back in. Then moved in her boyfriend!   Police and council would do nothing. So he eventually broke back in and changed the locks again.

 

To mitigate this, I've been investigating a bit of asset protection for the next in line.  I initially though a discretionary trust could provide protection but courts can overrule this and assume it is an asset that can be divided up.  Solicitors seems to love trusts for the fees they can generate but never seem to guarantee (assume liability) that they will actually work.

So far, I've looked at building a house for kids but protecting it with these methods:

1. Load it up with legal charges so it will never have any equity in

2. "Right-to-buy-back" contract as long as I live that renders it worthless.

3. Ransom strip under my control that renders it worthless. Utilities will all come via my property. Can turn off the supply easily.

4. Not a freehold then a ridiculously high ground rent to render it worthless (no need for kids to actually pay it).

5. Make it an annex so its legally mine. Rent-free to my kids, Miss Floozy to be a lodger (minimum rights)

Still working on it though.... inheritance tax considerations also come into play.

For the purpose of equality, my daughter will need the same protection from Mr Chad.  She has been issued with Stokies mugshot, just in case.

 

 

 

 

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goldbug9999
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My eldest is 16, thinking of setting him up with his own house when he's 21/22 but I cant do it in his name as Miss Floozy can claim half or more at her convenience. I'm investigating workarounds.

Who is "miss floozy" in this scenario - his GF/wife or yours  ?.

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As I said in the other thread

"70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third" and additionlly most millionaires are self-made.

Seems to me you're trying to come at this from the wrong way. The lad will need to come around to his own senses. One can talk compound interest and tax saving measures till they're blue in the face, but unless the light bulb goes off themselves nothing will change. Same thing for dealing and understanding the opposite sex.

He's 16. JISA is open to him now. So is work. Given your posts it looks like you can give him quite the springboard and also the opportuntiy to teach him some harsh but valuable real world lessons.

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swiss_democracy_for_all
51 minutes ago, VeryMeanReversion said:

 

Wrote this on the main dosbods thread but swissy wanted more info on a new thread.

My eldest is 16, thinking of setting him up with his own house when he's 21/22 but I cant do it in his name as Miss Floozy can claim half or more at her convenience. I'm investigating workarounds.

This may seem cynical but my cousin has just been stung for £100K+ after a 4-year marriage with no kids, basically the inheritance he had from his Dad has just gone to Miss Floozy.

Optimum strategy may be to appear to have lots of assets and have the benefit of them but not actually own them in any way (including rights to them under trusts - which courts can take into account).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To give a bit more context,  I've seen many examples in my extended family of the males getting completely stuffed. No females were ever worse off after a split, either keeping the house, getting lots of £ or marrying Mr Millionaire.

1. Top job, divorced, no job, stuffed for next 15 years.   Worked back up, married, divorced, stuffed.   Pretty blondes in swimsuits was his weakness. Paid for the private schooling for wife 2, several cars and a pension for her but they only lived together for months. 

2. Good job, builds lovely house for wife, wife has affair. He's stuffed.

3. Married, has 3 kids. Wife has affair. He's stuffed. Moves to Cyprus to be able to afford somewhere to live.

4. Close to retirement, wife has affair. He's stuffed.  My brother and I pay up so he can keep the house.

5. (original example). Married 4 years, no kids, got stuffed for £100K+. Became alcholic (rehab etc) but now turning it around (sober for a year and back in a good job)

6. First wife lovely but died, second wife tried to kill him (annulled), third wife lovely.  After wife 3, has had a live-in house keeper that changed the locks and wouldn't let him back in. Then moved in her boyfriend!   Police and council would do nothing. So he eventually broke back in and changed the locks again.

 

To mitigate this, I've been investigating a bit of asset protection for the next in line.  I initially though a discretionary trust could provide protection but courts can overrule this and assume it is an asset that can be divided up.  Solicitors seems to love trusts for the fees they can generate but never seem to guarantee (assume liability) that they will actually work.

So far, I've looked at building a house for kids but protecting it with these methods:

1. Load it up with legal charges so it will never have any equity in

2. "Right-to-buy-back" contract as long as I live that renders it worthless.

3. Ransom strip under my control that renders it worthless. Utilities will all come via my property. Can turn off the supply easily.

4. Not a freehold then a ridiculously high ground rent to render it worthless (no need for kids to actually pay it).

5. Make it an annex so its legally mine. Rent-free to my kids, Miss Floozy to be a lodger (minimum rights)

Still working on it though.... inheritance tax considerations also come into play.

For the purpose of equality, my daughter will need the same protection from Mr Chad.  She has been issued with Stokies mugshot, just in case.

Most of those things are only valid (if indeed they would work) while you're alive though?

I'm wondering if there isn't the germ of a business idea here. Set up some sort of organisation that looks after the interests of people's children and prevents Floozy/Chad from taking their assets. It could perhaps own the assets and rent them to the children at nominal prices, and execute sales/purchases at their request.

 

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goldbug9999
4 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Most of those things are only valid (if indeed they would work) while you're alive though?

I'm wondering if there isn't the germ of a business idea here. Set up some sort of organisation that looks after the interests of people's children and prevents Floozy/Chad from taking their assets. It could perhaps own the assets and rent them to the children at nominal prices, and execute sales/purchases at their request.

I'm pretty sure the courts will just "look through" any such arrangements. If you cede control to the extent that the courts cannot get at it then you are probably open to having it stolen from you. The only defense is not own or control the house in any shape or form, or not let the harridan live there in the first place.  Not really seeing why the OP doesn't just keep the house in his name TBH.

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swiss_democracy_for_all
1 minute ago, goldbug9999 said:

I'm pretty sure the courts will just "look through" any such arrangements. If you cede control to the extent that the courts cannot get at it then you are probably open to having it stolen from you. The only defense is not own or control the house in any shape or form, or not let the harridan live there in the first place. 

Yeah the organisation would have to be set up in a very careful way to prevent abuse, that's for sure. But I don't see why it shouldn't be doable.

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VeryMeanReversion
4 minutes ago, goldbug9999 said:

Not really seeing why the OP doesn't just keep the house in his name TBH.

Inheritance tax is the other issue.  I don't want it included in my estate and taxed at 40%.  Best guess is that I'll be over the asset limit by age 55 and the rest will be protected in a SIPP so IHT-free.

After I'm dead,  it's not my problem any more.  I'll do what I can whilst I'm alive.

I don't mind giving up control of an asset to a child, they can "steal" it for all I care and make it their problem. I just want to stop 50%+ of it being taken out of the family on the whim of Miss Floozy.

 

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reformed nice guy

Have you considered going offshore?

Getting a company in Seychelles or UAE could be a route to take 

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swiss_democracy_for_all

Perhaps we should investigate how the Rothschild family handle this kind of thing (if it's even possible to find out).

I would imagine you might end up underground if you try to take their money but I'm sure they have plenty of other levels of defence before they get drastic.

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54 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Yeah the organisation would have to be set up in a very careful way to prevent abuse, that's for sure. But I don't see why it shouldn't be doable.

I think it would run into all sorts of difficulties, since the status quo suits the establishment. If there aren't laws against it now, once it became popular there soon would be.

Another suggestion for those with kids is to move to a country where divorce-rape isn't the norm. There was an article last year (I think) about a rich couple filing for divorce. His lawyers tried to file in Germany but were beaten by her lawyers filing in the UK. That tells you all you need to know about who the UK's divorce laws favour. In Germany it's just a simple 50/50 split of all wealth accrued during the marriage.

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VeryMeanReversion
20 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

why not just buy him a house in due course and give it to him at a nominal rent?

Inheritance tax applies if the asset is in my name.  He then has to raise up to 40% of the house value to stay in it.

I suppose handing over 40% to the government is better than 50% to Miss Floozy.

Also, I can't actually afford to buy a house, let alone two. What I can do is build one in the garden capable of splitting into two good-size semis.  I renovated then doubled the size of my current house on a shoestring budget and already have the foundations done for a house in the garden (being used as a big garage at the moment).

Imagine Miss Floozy and her new boyfriend laying claim to a house you built yourself.

Rather than being a remote possibility, my experience/research shows it to be the most likely outcome unless proper precautions are taken.

A work colleague has a similar problem. He has just inherited a house and he doesn't need the money so is considering passing it directly to his son. But if the son marries/divorces, most of it is gone, especially if it's to a pre-existing single mum.

So the problem is "how can you provide a gift without that gift being subsequently subject to the family court".  If the family court can claim it in future, I'm not giving it.

 

 

 

 

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VeryMeanReversion
1 hour ago, Alex said:

His lawyers tried to file in Germany but were beaten by her lawyers filing in the UK. That tells you all you need to know about who the UK's divorce laws favour. 

As with the benefits system, the UK seems to be needs-based rather than "contribution-based".

If she "needs" your house and you can be kicked out and live in the car, tough.

Funny how a needs-based system creates lots of people with needs.

 

 

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Southmartin

OK as indicated on the other thread - i've looked into this (not deeply) and the best options seems to be:

  • Setup new company in place like Seychelles or Saint Kits & Nevis (where you have to lodge $35k to even start legal action)
  • Say company shares are 51% you, remaining 49% divided up by the offspring. 
  • Company is held in a double-blind trust. So if anyone does every find out the directors name, it's not yours. Though shares held in secret there show ownership to you and offspring with instructions that your shares go to offspring in the event of death
  • Buy property in the UK through the company (granted stamp duty is 15% for this type)

That way no one will ever know the identity of the person that owns the company that bought it.

Double bonuses:

  1. if you ever want to sell the house, you don't sell it. The buyer just takes control of the company you created (no stamp duty ever again)
  2. If you still hold the company when you die, then it's not listed as an asset - so you pass it on to the kids without death taxes
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goldbug9999

 

38 minutes ago, Southmartin said:

OK as indicated on the other thread - i've looked into this (not deeply) and the best options seems to be:

  • Setup new company in place like Seychelles or Saint Kits & Nevis (where you have to lodge $35k to even start legal action)
  • Say company shares are 51% you, remaining 49% divided up by the offspring. 
  • Company is held in a double-blind trust. So if anyone does every find out the directors name, it's not yours. Though shares held in secret there show ownership to you and offspring with instructions that your shares go to offspring in the event of death
  • Buy property in the UK through the company (granted stamp duty is 15% for this type)

That way no one will ever know the identity of the person that owns the company that bought it.

Double bonuses:

  1. if you ever want to sell the house, you don't sell it. The buyer just takes control of the company you created (no stamp duty ever again)
  2. If you still hold the company when you die, then it's not listed as an asset - so you pass it on to the kids without death taxes

Living in a property owned by a company of which you are a director would attract benefit in kind tax on the imputed rent, at least for UK companies, might be different for offshore but I would check it out.

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