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Economic Survival & Breakdown Of Society


DoINeedOne
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2 minutes ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Garlic is easy to grow, leave it in the ground for 2 years for big bulbs, but i still find shop lifting easier and cheaper.

Do you know anything about wild garlic?  It seems to be common but not sure it’s edible. 

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Bobthebuilder
Just now, One percent said:

Do you know anything about wild garlic?  It seems to be common but not sure it’s edible. 

Leaves are good raw in a salad etc, root needs to be cooked. I love the smell of wild garlic in the spring.

 

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1 minute ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Leaves are good raw in a salad etc, root needs to be cooked. I love the smell of wild garlic in the spring.

 

When you say cooked, can you dig it up and chop it, adding to things like spaghetti bog?  

Agree, the smell as you crush it underfoot is wonderful. It always seems to grow in shady areas which just adds to the experience. 

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Bobthebuilder
1 minute ago, One percent said:

When you say cooked, can you dig it up and chop it, adding to things like spaghetti bog?  

Agree, the smell as you crush it underfoot is wonderful. It always seems to grow in shady areas which just adds to the experience. 

Yes, spag bol is perfect, its like a lot of this end of the world stuff its a bit shit really but Hugh Fearnly Whittingstall says its the nads in Dorset. Dig up the root chop it and fry like you would with any garlic, its lovely stuff but a bit mild.Fresh leaves are wonderful but leave them in the fridge for 48 hours and it will stink your house out.

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Bobthebuilder

By the way, all my piss taking posts are in no way connected to the seriuose (see i cant spell it again) posts from the OP. Argentina and related stuff is not very nice.

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Bricks & Mortar
20 minutes ago, One percent said:

Do you know anything about wild garlic

Some places its like a forest carpet.  Find these places.  Harvest by the binliner.  Make pesto and store in jars for the apocalpse.

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1 minute ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

Some places its like a forest carpet.  Find these places.  Harvest by the binliner.  Make pesto and store in jars for the apocalpse.

And make your pesto with coriander, food of the gods. 

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6 hours ago, Dogtania said:

Regarding gold jewellery over coins I am seriously assuming/ hoping it doesn't get that bad here where we are bartering to acquire food!  

I expect if things got really bad, there could be some form of rationing as there was in the war. If we couldn't be food independent back then, how much worse would it be now?

In the case of rationing, there would likely be a black market in premium/fresh meat or extra rations, in which case portable, exchangeable goods or commodities would be useful to sweeten a deal. Maybe gold / silver, or maybe things like batteries, multi-vitamins, medical supplies, etc.

Personally if I sensed something on the horizon, I'd stock up on a year's worth of vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, plus lots of dried and tinned proteins, fats and carbs, and try to rotate them to keep them fresh. I doubt there would be severe shortages for that long, but the WW2 rations were pretty meagre and went on for a while, so it would be useful to be able to supplement them if the worst came to the worst.

For water, a few large containers full are good to have.  If you happen to have an old hot water tank in the attic, this could be converted into an emergency reservoir too. Just clean it and black it with bitumen, bung a few water cleaning tablets in, and a bit of plumbing so you can use it as regular, constantly refreshing water source for washing, cooking or boiling. It would be good to be able to shut off the water inlet, so if the water supply turns bad you can rely on the stored water. Running the outlet to the cold bath tap would mean it gets refreshed all the time. This effectively how it work on a boat. I've always got a few hundred litres of water at hand.

I know this comment is a bit bunker-ish but I reckon whatever the situation, a full stomach and reliable source of basic nutrition would keep the mind and body functioning right and reduce the likelihood of expensive desperate decisions. 

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Bobthebuilder
3 minutes ago, MvR said:

I expect if things got really bad, there could be some form of rationing as there was in the war. If we couldn't be food independent back then, how much worse would it be now?

In the case of rationing, there would likely be a black market in premium/fresh meat or extra rations, in which case portable, exchangeable goods or commodities would be useful to sweeten a deal. Maybe gold / silver, or maybe things like batteries, multi-vitamins, medical supplies, etc.

Personally if I sensed something on the horizon, I'd stock up on a year's worth of vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, plus lots of dried and tinned proteins, fats and carbs, and try to rotate them to keep them fresh. I doubt there would be severe shortages for that long, but the WW2 rations were pretty meagre and went on for a while, so it would be useful to be able to supplement them if the worst came to the worst.

For water, a few large containers full are good to have.  If you happen to have an old hot water tank in the attic, this could be converted into an emergency reservoir too. Just clean it and black it with bitumen, bung a few water cleaning tablets in, and a bit of plumbing so you can use it as regular, constantly refreshing water source for washing, cooking or boiling. It would be good to be able to shut off the water inlet, so if the water supply turns bad you can rely on the stored water. Running the outlet to the cold bath tap would mean it gets refreshed all the time. This effectively how it work on a boat. I've always got a few hundred litres of water at hand.

I know this comment is a bit bunker-ish but I reckon whatever the situation, a full stomach and reliable source of basic nutrition would keep the mind and body functioning right and reduce the likelihood of expensive desperate decisions. 

In terms of plumbing you have just designed a 70s open vent, heat only system.

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2 minutes ago, Bobthebuilder said:

In terms of plumbing you have just designed a 70s open vent, heat only system.

I'm confused now. I wasn't thinking about hot water.. just a use for an old water tank that's no longer needed when a combi boiler is installed..  or maybe the thing I"m thinking of isn't to store hot water at all?..  you know, the big square metal tanks in the attic of some houses..

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Bobthebuilder
1 minute ago, MvR said:

I'm confused now. I wasn't thinking about hot water.. just a use for an old water tank that's no longer needed when a combi boiler is installed..  or maybe the thing I"m thinking of isn't to store hot water at all?..  you know, the big square metal tanks in the attic of some houses..

We plumbers call the water from the loft tanks "down service" its not drinkable and balanced to hot water cylinder and cold taps in bathrooms, its pretty rank as water goes, dead pigeons and all that.

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Bricks & Mortar

Eau Water!

This is probably not gonna be as easy as they make out.  You might find your garden is rock, or dry, or boulderclay, or somesuch.

I know that my basement is built on sand.  And in olden days, there was a well and handpump within 30 metres of here.  I've dug that well up in the course of installing a patio, and I think I'll find water aout 12 feet down from my basement floor.  My jobs gonna be easier than his.
 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dogtania said:

@MvR good steps for the peace of mind .... But curious about the electrolytes, hangover cure or helping in case of sickness?

Electrolytes are essential if food is very restricted and you need to remain relatively active. You can go a day or two per pound of spare body fat without eating at all, but you'll expel a lot of water, and electrolytes with it which will really take it's toll if you don't supplement them. Something similar happens on a low-carb diet, and I really notice the difference if I'm deficient..lethargic and weak.  And of course they'd be essential for sickness too, particularly diarrhoea.

There's a guy on YouTube who's just fasted for 150 days to lose weight, and all he took was vitamins and electrolytes. 

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Really interesting thanks @MvR have a couple of brands I've used which are marketed towards athletes, one being "SOS rehydrate" which I like as it's in powder form.  The blurb talks about it being patented and equilevent to an intravenous drip in terms of absorption.  

Only thing it is super expensive at about £1.50 for the full dose serving.  Probably should just buy diorylite. 

I can definitely feel instant effect, like a pick me up.  Actually reminds me in this way of another powdered (and possibly over priced!) supplement called natural calm that I used to take after exercise/ workout that restores magnesium. 

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Well I suppose you could say that I’m a ‘mild’ preppier.

The essentials I store are mainly for economy reasons and I rotate the supply. So I buy things on offer in bulk, like toilet rolls (Nikki farmfoods using the coupons) like tinned tomatoes (3 for £1), 10kg rice (Ramavan offers) and other dry and tinned food, as well as powered milk, vitamins and protein supplements etc. 

I tend to buy big packs of quality alkaline batteries in different sizes, as well as rechargeable. I own lots of camping gear, as I like to go fishing (sea and course) so have things like a wind up radio, winding lamps, solar power packs, sawyer water filter (to use any water source), collapsible water carriers, Swedish steel camping knife with fire starter etc.

Other things to have that come in handy for regular use anyway is things like tarps, decent lengths of paracord, well kitted decent first aid box etc. My daughter and I also collect pre-1920s silver coins as well as modern Britannias, so we have a sizeable stash between us.

In any scenario where you needed to use outdoor skills would be useless unless you practice of course (knots, basic plant identification and general outdoor skills) You can’t be relying on YouTube videos to follow should if ever SHTF.

Do I think I will ever I’ll be on a situation where I’ll need to rely on the above? I hope not.

My decades of experience working with the darker side of the human psyche tell me otherwise in an economic collapse. I wouldn’t be hanging around in any city that’s for sure. Rationing also certainly wouldn’t work, it’s a different world we live in to the 1940s, every man for himself and dog-eat-dog.

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Democorruptcy
16 hours ago, DoINeedOne said:

When a guy I used to work with told me about everything he lost in Argentina being in my own little world I didn't even know what had happened there, which is when I started looking online and came across this PDF that is an interesting read 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1m246bmxb9o2y34/Argentinastory.pdf?dl=0

That's by Fernando “FerFAL” Aguirre and he does The Modern Survivalist blog

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17 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Being seriouse (witch i cant spell), how do you grow veg cheaper than the farmers? Trust me ive tried the allotment and all that, yes i know it tastes better with butter on it innit. but it dont work out, and dont talk to me about livestock either, they would all become pets and share my bed.

I don't think you can grow it for less. Its not really a free market - Farmers receive big government subsidies, particularly the Welsh sheep farmers who can barely scratch a living. However, don't get me wrong, i'm not personally critical of the situation - its a hard job and strategically the UK needs a reliable domestic food supply. But in the future we do need to move to larger more efficient farms as UK farms tend to be small compared to our international competitors.       

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18 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

I love you guys but really? If you want to survive the zombie apocaypse only two things matter, physical condition and weapons. I know a few Royal Marines from the 90s, and trust me you would not want to get in a fight with those fuckers over a carrot. They would take your land, your fuel and anything else they want.

Physical prowess counts for nothing though if the other guy has a gun and the Royal Marine doesn't... It's all relative.

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Bobthebuilder
49 minutes ago, spunko said:

Physical prowess counts for nothing though if the other guy has a gun and the Royal Marine doesn't... It's all relative.

True spunko, but Marines are trained for that sort of situation. My point really was, it would not get to a fight, if you are gonna start on a guy like that you would have to be able to finish it as well, whitch you couldnt, so you would surrender.

I also think in a social collapse on a large scale we would soon go back to medieval life expectancy, most of the population under 25 and if you made it to 40 you would of had a good run, survival of the fittest, dieses etc.

Nice forum by the way, youve done a good job here. Ta.

Edited by Bobthebuilder
dieses
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sancho panza
On 21/08/2019 at 16:55, Dogtania said:

I think in the UK we've luckily been insulated from any feeling of strife or disorder.  A vast majority of the world I'd imagine take less for granted, especially economic stability.  We've been coddled basically in cotton wool!?

I read somewhere recently that quite a large percentage of the silicon valley new rich have back up plans and that speaking say of having a holiday home in New Zealand was widely understood as code for bolt hole if TSHTF.  I guess if I had a gazillion bucks I would be hedging regardless of probabilities though.

Countries like say South Africa I found the people generally live with a bit more ken towards mortality (be it living in gated communities or simply the general air that I find of "life being cheap"). 

Zimbabwe on the other hand as we all know became a disaster, at least for a large portion of white people who had a economically stable existence up until late 90s.  Oh and I guess most other people that weren't from the right tribe. 

Regarding gold jewellery over coins I am seriously assuming/ hoping it doesn't get that bad here where we are bartering to acquire food!  Maybe if the West/ globally things really collapse for as time at some later date though?  Anyway I think the Indian culture of hording all manner of jewellery they've got a head start.  Or what about those US preppers who stock up on tiny demotions in neat little packages

 

Mrs P from SA and have friends from ZIm.Reality is that Mugabe has been a disaster for the average black person as well.

I'm really glad we've got a prepper thread now.

On 21/08/2019 at 19:55, Cattle Prod said:

My concern with the UK are the millions and millions of people who have been bribed to stay put in front of daytime TV instead of going out and robbing us muppets who work and pay tax. What will these people who have been infantilised and rendered helpless and incompetent by tax credits and other handouts do when their 'income' drops, even a little bit? @DurhamBorn would no doubt say the govt will print to keep paying them, but when they realise it's not buying enough?

The UK was once a stoic, grin and bear it place. Is that still in the character? I fear I see far too many people taking zero responsibility for themselves, and just blaming others "its the government/immigrants innit". This is dangerous.

I guess for me it's kind of like driving. I'm not concerned about being able to look after myself and mine, but I worry about the other idiots on the road. I think any sane person needs some basic plans to a) not get robbed by central banks and govt (mostly covered on the Credit Deflation thread b) not get robbed by those who will get robbed by central banks and govt c) ensure you have contingency for fluctuations and volatility in services we take for granted (particularly electricity).

I'll be focussing on a) for the next 5-8 years and build toward b) and c)

It's easy to go nuts with this, and people will think you're nuts too, but it can be simple "sleep easy at night" stuff.

There were two occasions in the 07-10 crisis where we were hours from the ATMs being limited or switched off in Ireland. 1) when AIG was teetering after Lehman 2) when the ECB put a gun to the govts head about making bondholders whole (they directly threatened 'no cash in atms on monday' as a matter of piblic record).

 

UK population has been switched off in so mkany ways.

We have an electoral system that stops disrutpive forces coming through so the elite can pretend all's well but it isn't.

You're right about the TV watchers but I think we're going to see a sea change in the attitudes of people who are being asked to pay for them.I see it ast work.The resentment from wroking people in the UK is beginning to grow the more they struggle.

This weill not end well imho.

Like you I like sleeping at night.

I see the police at work a lot and let me tell you.That blue line in the UK is thinner than ever.Money has been funnled into tax credits and not into the army and the police.Cities with 300,000 populations that ten years ago had 75 police on a friday night now have 25..............................................like I said,this will not end well.

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sancho panza
On 21/08/2019 at 20:15, DoINeedOne said:

This is just some info i had saved personally i don't trust pensions the goal posts will always be moved as far as I'm concerned

 

Digital wealth is easier to seize

 

IRELAND 2009: Took Eur4.4bn National Pension Reserve Fund assets to bail out banks.  The Fund was established in 2001 to ensure the Government could pay pensions in 2025-2050

PORTUGAL 2010:  Nationalised pension assets of Portugal Telecom

IRELAND 2010: Took remaining Euro 2.5bn National Pension Reserve Fund assets

FRANCE 2010: Took Euro33bn from its National Reserve Pension Fund that was intended to fund pensions in 2020-2040 but used the money to fund today’s pensions instead

HUNGARY 2010: Nationalised $14bn of individual private pension accounts which had been set up in 1998 to limit state pension liabilities and used the money to reduce state debt

PORTUGAL 2011: Confiscated pension assets of its largest banks which comprised around three quarters of private pension assets

POLAND 2011:  In 2011, Poland reduced the mandatory contributions into its second pillar privately-managed pension funds from 7% of salary to 2.3%, with the balance being paid into the state pension system

UK 2012: Transferred £24bn of Royal Mail pension assets to the Treasury and used the funds to reduce the current budget deficit

POLAND 2013: Nationalised half private pension assets by confiscating bond holdings

all they have to do is change the solvency ratios for pensions and kaboom,you've got fresh buyer of govt paper on a 1% ten yea yield

On 21/08/2019 at 20:19, DoINeedOne said:

I have met a few South Africans who talk about the violence there, one lifted up his top to show where he had been shot when someone car jacked him

As for smaller Gold amounts what about silver coins depending on the current price much less in value

I think silver makes more sense of buying beans and gold for bribing border guards

On 21/08/2019 at 22:07, Bobthebuilder said:

I love you guys but really? If you want to survive the zombie apocaypse only two things matter, physical condition and weapons. I know a few Royal Marines from the 90s, and trust me you would not want to get in a fight with those fuckers over a carrot. They would take your land, your fuel and anything else they want.

Physical health deteriorates rapidly in a few days without food.Bigger built people would suffer the greatest loss of function.As you say weapons are far more important.I did some survival training and within  a few hours we were ravenous.Wihin a night we were freezing and by morning I was ready to kill bambi with my bare hands,.

I've kept a load of old army  kit and keep a store of charcoal for coooking in extrmise.Need to reaplce the water filters I bought in 2008/9.This thread made me dig them out.

https://www.msrgear.com/ie/water

On 21/08/2019 at 22:28, Chewing Grass said:

Pets with benefits, tell me about it, one minute you are munching away in a field, the next you are Joneses bed-warmer.

xD

On 21/08/2019 at 22:54, Cattle Prod said:

Potatoes - one of the few foods that provide complete nutrition and you can grow them in a plastic bin

Have you any good links.I'd love to do that for the kids?

Edited by sancho panza
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sancho panza
On 21/08/2019 at 23:58, MvR said:

I expect if things got really bad, there could be some form of rationing as there was in the war. If we couldn't be food independent back then, how much worse would it be now?

In the case of rationing, there would likely be a black market in premium/fresh meat or extra rations, in which case portable, exchangeable goods or commodities would be useful to sweeten a deal. Maybe gold / silver, or maybe things like batteries, multi-vitamins, medical supplies, etc.

Personally if I sensed something on the horizon, I'd stock up on a year's worth of vitamins, minerals and electrolytes, plus lots of dried and tinned proteins, fats and carbs, and try to rotate them to keep them fresh. I doubt there would be severe shortages for that long, but the WW2 rations were pretty meagre and went on for a while, so it would be useful to be able to supplement them if the worst came to the worst.

For water, a few large containers full are good to have.  If you happen to have an old hot water tank in the attic, this could be converted into an emergency reservoir too. Just clean it and black it with bitumen, bung a few water cleaning tablets in, and a bit of plumbing so you can use it as regular, constantly refreshing water source for washing, cooking or boiling. It would be good to be able to shut off the water inlet, so if the water supply turns bad you can rely on the stored water. Running the outlet to the cold bath tap would mean it gets refreshed all the time. This effectively how it work on a boat. I've always got a few hundred litres of water at hand.

I know this comment is a bit bunker-ish but I reckon whatever the situation, a full stomach and reliable source of basic nutrition would keep the mind and body functioning right and reduce the likelihood of expensive desperate decisions. 

I think you're right on the balck market.but alos 'during the war' we had a plaint popualtion that was fighting for survival.I think our country demogrpahic breakdown would struggle to be as cohesive and selfless.There are a lot of people in the UK who aren't british (including my mrs) who don't have the ties to the country that those genereations did

Ref stocking up.Good idea.WHen Lehmand went down.I went out and bought crates of tinned salmon/pilchards,beans etc.

The water filters I've linked to are incredible and get rid of a most of the crap in most water soruces

https://www.msrgear.com/ie/water/guardian-purifier

  • Ultimate Protection: Meets NSF protocol P248, testing standard used by U.S. military, for removal of viruses, bacteria, protozoa, and sediment from “worst-case” water conditions.
  • Fast & Easy: Pumps a rapid 2.5 liters per minute, offering added viral protection without the need for chemicals, bulbs, batteries, or waiting.
  • Self-Cleaning: Pump self-cleans on every stroke, providing consistently fast flow rates with zero hassle—no backflushing or filter-scrubbing ever required.
  • Long-Lasting: Leading-edge hollow fiber cartridge treats up to 10,000+ liters.
  • Extremely Durable: Engineered to withstand heavy use, freezing, drops*, and harsh environments.

 

AS you say the biggest challenge is keeping the body working and it's incredible when you see fighting machines of men brought down by an infected wound that was a scratch.

 

I'll have a think about the medical angle.

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