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spygirl

Wheels coming off HE bubble

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https://www.ft.com/content/3fc14332-60c7-11e7-8814-0ac7eb84e5f1#comments

3/4 of grads will not repay student loan.

Normal stuff - highest loans in developed world etc etc.

IR compounding faster than their earnings.

UK students have debt of 50k on graduation.

US have £27K.

Bit of a shocker that.

Uni funding going into low cost arts and humanities ..... what  a surprise.

Great comment. which could have only come from a public sector worker of HE lecturer:

'Charging people for their education is nonsensical.  The educated earn more and therefore pay more tax, create more economic activity, start new enterprises, and offer opportunities for growth.

I would sooner charge people for watching television or other acts of indolence.'                 

 

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It would be less of a problem if degrees retained their previous status of a relatively rare marker of academic achievement that were only necessary in a very limited range of jobs.  Under those circumstances degrees were very much a matter of personal choice.

Now you have the lunacy of having an essentially practical profession such as nursing requiring a degree and the £50k of debt that goes with it.

If some 18 year old wishes to burden themselves with debt to do a degree which will have no career advantage then go for it, it's a free world, but making degrees an entry requirement when it confers little or no advantage is unfair.

Edit: I am not having a go at nursing. Accountancy is also an intensely practical discipline for which a degree gives little advantage; but you still don't require a degree to be an accountant.

Edited by Frank Hovis

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6 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

It would be less of a problem if degrees retained their previous status of a relatively rare marker of academic achievement that were only necessary in a very limited range of jobs.  Under those circumstances degrees were very much a matter of personal choice.

Now you have the lunacy of having an essentially practical profession such as nursing requiring a degree and the £50k of debt that goes with it.

If some 18 year old wishes to burden themselves with debt to do a degree which will have no career advantage then go for it, it's a free world, but making degrees an entry requirement when it confers little or no advantage is unfair.

Edit: I am not having a go at nursing. Accountancy is also an intensely practical discipline for which a degree gives little advantage; but you still don't require a degree to be an accountant.

The police also announced this recently I think.  

The problem is that we have debased what was a highly regarded vocational education system and we continue to do so.  I offer university apprenticeship as a new but still cynical way of further debasing high quality vocational education. 

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1 minute ago, THE MAJOR said:

The Education system in the UK, generally, is fucked. 

I suppose the general idea, was to relieve government of the burden of financing further education, whilst allowing the institutions to control their expenditure.

Unfortunately what we have, as Frank says, is an extremely unfair system.

In regard to other aspects of education; I didn't receive a privileged education as such, and was educated completely by the state. I have a firm grasp on a variety of subjects and am reasonably confident in my history/geography/science etc..... when I look at my nephews and nieces 40 yrs on, well here's an example. One of my nieces thought that Pizza's were invented in Chicago, she's not thick or stupid, she just didn't know, she couldn't even tell me where Naples was!

I'm very disappointed with the fact that the state has 'dumbed down' education to this extent.

Dumbed down to the lowest denominator, I.e. The less able. The alternative is to have large numbers not achieving qualifications and that would never do.  

The other iss is that of "I'm entitled ". An example, I was interviewing last week and refused a place to an applicant as they were not qualified, didn't meet the criteria. We now have a formal complaint to deal with as the interview acted unprofessionally and were discriminatory. Ffs. Just ffs. This is going to cause us hours of work. 

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I think even if people realize how useless many degrees are, things wont change until school leavers are actually offered a good variety of apprenticeships that actually lead to something.

I think the reason why many people feel they need to get a degree is that they think it's the only way to escape minimum wage hell if you're not going to become a tradesperson of some sort.

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1 minute ago, JoeDavola said:

I think even if people realize how useless many degrees are, things wont change until school leavers are actually offered a good variety of apprenticeships that actually lead to something.

I think the reason why many people feel they need to get a degree is that they think it's the only way to escape minimum wage hell if you're not going to become a tradesperson of some sort.

And that is the problem. the HE sector have effectively created their own client base.

Switched on employers could sidestep the system altogether, pick the smartest and most committed students at A level, train them up to be company men/women from the start and I think you would  end up with a lot more committed and able workforce which would stick around rather than job-switch to get the the best salary possible from one year to the next to pay off the debts. 

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2 minutes ago, onlyme said:

And that is the problem. the HE sector have effectively created their own client base.

Switched on employers could sidestep the system altogether, pick the smartest and most committed students at A level, train them up to be company men/women from the start and I think you would  end up with a lot more committed and able workforce which would stick around rather than job-switch to get the the best salary possible from one year to the next to pay off the debts. 

They could, but they generally don't - why not?

For example, I'm a computer programmer. I have a first class computer science degree. It was bloody useless in terms of real world skills. I knew I wanted to program when I started my A-Levels - if there was a 2-year A level course that involved a lot of coding, I think an apprenticeship at the age of 18 in a software company would have served me much better.

There must be a reason why everyone is complicit in keeping the degree there as a barrier to entry to most half-decent jobs. Dunno what it is though.

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4 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

They could, but they generally don't - why not?

For example, I'm a computer programmer. I have a first class computer science degree. It was bloody useless in terms of real world skills. I knew I wanted to program when I started my A-Levels - if there was a 2-year A level course that involved a lot of coding, I think an apprenticeship at the age of 18 in a software company would have served me much better.

There must be a reason why everyone is complicit in keeping the degree there as a barrier to entry to most half-decent jobs. Dunno what it is though.

Filtering and laziness, if someone (an HE outfit) provides a simper route to filtering out 100's of applications it will be used.

Similar experience, but worse, I did a thick sandwich course, a year out with employer first so knew exactly how irrelevant proving from first principles the mathematics behind what I was doing was. In year off did all sorts including scanning sonar beam forming modelling, QC analysis, mechanical / electronic design. 

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22 minutes ago, onlyme said:

And that is the problem. the HE sector have effectively created their own client base.

Switched on employers could sidestep the system altogether, pick the smartest and most committed students at A level, train them up to be company men/women from the start and I think you would  end up with a lot more committed and able workforce which would stick around rather than job-switch to get the the best salary possible from one year to the next to pay off the debts. 

The problem with this is that by and large, employers think it is someone else's responsibility to train their staff.  

I blame the CBI for this as they spent years carping on about how the education system at whatever level did not provide people with the skills employers need.

the answer to this which was barely articulated is no, the education system is there to turn out thoughtful, analytical, numerate and literate people.  It is up to employers to take this raw material and polish it into what you need.

lazy and tightfisted employers have got us to this situation. 

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Quote

There must be a reason why everyone is complicit in keeping the degree there as a barrier to entry to most half-decent jobs. Dunno what it is though.

There aren't enough jobs, well, decent jobs, that provide a good standard of living for the average Joe. It's slowly turning the nation into a homogenous zero hours workforce.

I suppose the idea of upping the anti to qualify for a decent job, isn't in itself a bad thing, but as people here have said, most degree's are pointless anyway and offer nothing in preparation for the working world.

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17 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

They could, but they generally don't - why not?

For example, I'm a computer programmer. I have a first class computer science degree. It was bloody useless in terms of real world skills. I knew I wanted to program when I started my A-Levels - if there was a 2-year A level course that involved a lot of coding, I think an apprenticeship at the age of 18 in a software company would have served me much better.

There must be a reason why everyone is complicit in keeping the degree there as a barrier to entry to most half-decent jobs. Dunno what it is though.

See my comment above Joe.  Employers are lazy feckers who have no interest in developing their own workforce. 

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6 minutes ago, One percent said:

See my comment above Joe.  Employers are lazy feckers who have no interest in developing their own workforce. 

Which is why employers are mainly pro-EU. Bigger cheaper pool to fish in for their recruits. 

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7 minutes ago, One percent said:

See my comment above Joe.  Employers are lazy feckers who have no interest in developing their own workforce. 

This point still amazes me, even after many years. My current employer seems to expect that you will just have somehow become an expert in x/y/z technology overnight, so that you are suddenly relevant to a particular (normally, very shortly timeboxed) requirement that they have.

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34 minutes ago, onlyme said:

And that is the problem. the HE sector have effectively created their own client base.

Switched on employers could sidestep the system altogether, pick the smartest and most committed students at A level, train them up to be company men/women from the start and I think you would  end up with a lot more committed and able workforce which would stick around rather than job-switch to get the the best salary possible from one year to the next to pay off the debts. 

Think this is already happening, in the last 2 or 3 years a family member of mine who's very bright got snapped up straight out of school at 16 on an apprenticeship for a top wealth management firm. I know another two very clever 18 year olds who've recently got decent apprenticeships at a bank and top accountancy firm. I imagine their future is looking a lot brighter than any 21 year old coming out of uni with a 2:1 in Business.

In the future it might be the case unless you do something like Medicine then its only unemployable losers who go to uni and get degrees. Having a degree will be seen as a sign of unemployability more than anything else.

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1 hour ago, THE MAJOR said:

The Education system in the UK, generally, is fucked.

If it makes you feel better the French system is in meltdown. Poorly funded universities, a number of which have gone bust. However it is the clearing system which has really gone haywire. The commies that run France decided to stop universities selecting on grades, it was discriminatory. Discriminatory against the thick and feckless that is. You basically put your name into the clearing system and you randomly get allocated a degree. So you're interested in science and have top grades, tough luck sucker, computer says no or how about a degree in psychology in Crapville university?

This year there are 40k students with no university place despite many of them having top grades at Baccalaureate. Kids with good English are looking to study in the UK (Scotland and NI are popular due to low fees), Ireland or the USA.

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19 minutes ago, leggers said:

This point still amazes me, even after many years. My current employer seems to expect that you will just have somehow become an expert in x/y/z technology overnight, so that you are suddenly relevant to a particular (normally, very shortly timeboxed) requirement that they have.

Tell me about it. My boss says to me today "this will please you, I've got a 3 month requirement for you to work for power company, they want an expert in Virtualization, NAS andCloud Orchestrator , you know Docker so that should do".

I'm like, WTF?

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Just now, One percent said:

It is almost as if the whole of Europe have decided to bring it all down from within. 

That's my only conclusion.

In France, you can get a good school or university place if you have political connections but whereas you merely had to know someone in the past - the corruption was widespread and endemic it is now getting harder and harder to grease your way into a comfortable position. Even the elite are feeling the pinch and circling the wagons.

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6 minutes ago, davidg said:

If it makes you feel better the French system is in meltdown. Poorly funded universities, a number of which have gone bust. However it is the clearing system which has really gone haywire. The commies that run France decided to stop universities selecting on grades, it was discriminatory. Discriminatory against the thick and feckless that is. You basically put your name into the clearing system and you randomly get allocated a degree. So you're interested in science and have top grades, tough luck sucker, computer says no or how about a degree in psychology in Crapville university?


That's an amazing idea.
Fucking genius. 
Who on earth thought of that.

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