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TheBlueCat

The left and religion

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The left used to be massively anti religion but now they seem to be very pro Islam, what happened? I ask this in a genuine sense of inquiry as I'm kind of right libertarian (although I think socialized medicine is the least bad option) and I'm confused to find myself on the opposite side of the debate on this point.

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There is no left, just as there is no right.  All political parties are part of the establishment.  All part of the hegemonic process. The dominant ideology will always subsume that which threatens the status quo and its power.  

There is only an us and them.  

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Islam fills vacuums. There was a vacuum on the left caused by the move of the aspirational middle class, many of whom had come from working class backgrounds, to capitalist ideology and the apathy of the working class who were ground down by loss of jobs and placated by available benefits.

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I don't really know what 'left' and 'right' mean any more. Indeed I suspect that they mean rather different things to younger people than to older people.

One aspect of 'the modern left' is a desire to be seen as libertarian, so championing everyone's rights to be, and to do, as they please. However if you take this to its endpoint then you don't get a multi-cultural society, you get multiple societies of multiple cultures, AKA modern Britain.

You cannot criticise any particular culture because if you do that you undermine the entire ethos of the position. Diversity is something to be applauded for diversity's sake, like a "four legs good!" mantra. Because of this, double-standards then begin to be applied. This type of person is commonly called "leftist" (derogatory), not "left-wing".

Another aspect of the modern leftist is to debate without any nuances and to fail to see any grey areas, in a way that children do, and to manipulate or make arguments based on touchy-feely personality aspects rather than facts. In a nutshell: "I am right, and I know that I am, so there is no debate to be had. To suggest otherwise is evil". People can be readily grouped into two categories - "nice people" (Labour) and "evil people" (Tories).

This is partly because of a failure to relate reality to theory and also partly because of a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. It considers humans to be "optimal creatures" like spokes in a wheel which must all necessarily turn in the same direction. The traditional "right" begin from a position that considers how humanity actually behaves.

Actually, I think left-wing people from, say, the 1950s, if brought forward in time, would not recognise much of the modern political "left vs right" landscape.

"religion" with a lower-case r exists in most walks of life, even science; sometimes, eminent scientists will become fixated on particular explanations and spend their lives debunking others' theories because they don't agree with theirs even when neither are proven

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1 minute ago, DTMark said:

I don't really know what 'left' and 'right' mean any more. Indeed I suspect that they mean rather different things to younger people than to older people.

One aspect of 'the modern left' is a desire to be seen as libertarian, so championing everyone's rights to be, and to do, as they please. However if you take this to its endpoint then you don't get a multi-cultural society, you get multiple societies of multiple cultures, AKA modern Britain.

You cannot criticise any particular culture because if you do that you undermine the entire ethos of the position. Diversity is something to be applauded for diversity's sake, like a "four legs good!" mantra. Because of this, double-standards then begin to be applied. This type of person is commonly called "leftist" (derogatory), not "left-wing".

Another aspect of the modern leftist is to debate without any nuances and to fail to see any grey areas, in a way that children do, and to manipulate or make arguments based on touchy-feely personality aspects rather than facts. In a nutshell: "I am right, and I know that I am, so there is no debate to be had. To suggest otherwise is evil". People can be readily grouped into two categories - "nice people" (Labour) and "evil people" (Tories).

This is partly because of a failure to relate reality to theory and also partly because of a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. It considers humans to be "optimal creatures" like spokes in a wheel which must all necessarily turn in the same direction. The traditional "right" begin from a position that considers how humanity actually behaves.

Actually, I think left-wing people from, say, the 1950s, if brought forward in time, would not recognise much of the modern political "left vs right" landscape.

"religion" with a lower-case r exists in most walks of life, even science; sometimes, eminent scientists will become fixated on particular explanations and spend their lives debunking others' theories because they don't agree with theirs even when neither are proven

I find that if I'm in discussion with anyone slightly left it becomes a pantomime villain/hero argument. 

There is an expectation from the left that if you identify as slightly right you're evil and a monster, however if you identify elsewise then you're an altruistic saint who only wants betterment for their fellow man. 

Personally I still see right/left as simply looking through a different prism of the world, much like an introvert vs and extrovert would. 

For me it's individualism vs collectivism and who I vote for should align themselves as best they can with individualism. That usually means I'm forever holding my nose when voting. In this pantomime world, if you vote Tory then a leftist would assume that you must really be an evil monster to do so and sees voting as some kind of football match. 

Oh and I suppose why the left has piggybacked Islam is because it's a controlling organisation. Bread and butter to lefties. 

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