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One percent

CBI at it again. All students and the education system is carp

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When I started out in the early 90s I worked long hours for a pittance, 12hr days often 7 days a week, because I was investing in my future. I was not unique. And I could create opportunities in the world.

Over the last 20 years I have seen my generation (well actually people who are 10 years older than me and in their early 60's) slowly do less and less as they exploit the young to 'cover for them' and keep them in their comfortable lifestyles. But this is now without any sight of a quid pro quo reward.

The 60yr olds con themselves that they are giving the young vital training or opportunities as previous generations did for themselves. They are not, however. They are hording resources.

Without the light at the end of the tunnel young people starting out now (as I was then) do 6 hour days, 5 days a week (arguably healthier) and put in the minimum of effort (arguably unhealthier as that attitude rolls over to a drifting life).

It bugged me so much I 'got out'

Edited by Hopeful

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1 hour ago, onlyme said:

We are largely in a world of the Confederation of Bullshit Industrialist's making (or at least wishes). They have campaigned for high debt, globalisation,  high immigration, degrees for everything. 

We have metropolitan schools demanding (and getting) oversized funding per pupil to deal with multiple native languages spoken in class, dumbed down university sector keeping bums on seats warm and degrees being an educational market for no other reason than to filter job applicant numbers. The jobs offered (even after 50k of debt) on average no longer support an individual's housing needs let a lone a family's.

^^^^this.

the CBI have carped on for years, doing their best to drive down the cost of labour.  They want everyone else to supplement their workforce in terms of education and training, low taxation and subsidies in they way of in work benefits. Chickens coming home to roost. 

If I was just starting out, I would look at what the employer is willing to offer both in terms and pay.  I would then look at the lifestyle that this package can provide for me.  My final analysis would be fuck it, why bother. 

Employers have forgotten then need to reward people appropriately. The rely solely on the stick and have forgotten all about the carrot. 

4 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

Not the last proponents and not the only proponents. Unfortunately. 

 

The young were sold down the river in 2008/9, when Brown bailed out the banks, turned on the QE tap and kicked the crash down the road(and also set the precedent so now deemed ok for others to do so). There has always been a reset every few years, each time granting the next generations their chance. Now there hasn't been one since about 1992, and in the world of PPE politicians, difficult to see one being allowed now.

The irony of Brown being a supposed socialist and putting into place everything to crush the young and the working classes while exalting the elite is extraordinary.

 

Whilst I agree to a certain extent, the reeling back of employment rights and opportunity began 30 years ago.  Brown just speeded it up somewhat 

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4 minutes ago, One percent said:

^^^^this.

the CBI have carped on for years, doing their best to drive down the cost of labour.  They want everyone else to supplement their workforce in terms of education and training, low taxation and subsidies in they way of in work benefits. Chickens coming home to roost. 

If I was just starting out, I would look at what the employer is willing to offer both in terms and pay.  I would then look at the lifestyle that this package can provide for me.  My final analysis would be fuck it, why bother. 

Employers have forgotten then need to reward people appropriately. The rely solely on the stick and have forgotten all about the carrot. 

At the end of my annual appraisal with my line manager, and after I had given evidence of everything I had done, the moment always came when I was asked, 'is there anything I wanted to say?'. I always used to ask what my line manager had done for me. (A part of the line manager's role was my career progression.) I always found I had a different line Manager every year.

Edited by Hopeful

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2 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

At the end of my annual appraisal with my line manager, and after I had given evidence of everything I had done, the moment always came when I was asked, 'is there anything I wanted to say?'. I always used to ask what my line manager had done for me. (A part of the line manager's role was my career progression.) I always found I had a different line Manager every year.

You are lucky.  I'm meant to write my appraisal before the meeting. It's carp.  This year I was so pissed off by the lack of support, it was essentially blank.  

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

You are lucky.  I'm meant to write my appraisal before the meeting. It's carp.  This year I was so pissed off by the lack of support, it was essentially blank.  

The point being, my line manager(s) had never done anything during the year

I was in academia (I think you are too)

Edited by Hopeful

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3 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

The point being, my line manager(s) had never done anything during the year

I was in academia (I think you are too)

That I am.  My point was the same I think.  My manager is after their own self aggrandisement and bugger supporting anyone else. 

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

That I am.  My point was the same I think.  My manager is after their own self aggrandisement and bugger supporting anyone else. 

Familiar. I never sought support, but I also wasn't there to be exploited without it.

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2 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Familiar. I never sought support, but I also wasn't there to be exploited without it.

Me neither but it's the exploitation. I've managed to get myself into a position where I am running a fairly large course, expected to publish, but with an over full teaching workload. When I have broached this with my boss, he has dismissed it out of hand and then accused me of just moaning.  Oh and then there was the comment that I was not committed. I have withdrawn from running the course with the reasons being that I'm not paid extra for it nor given the time to do it.  I wanted to be able to spend what spare time I have commenting on dosbods  writing.  The response was I would not be allowed to step down.  Oh how we laughed at that one. 

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3 minutes ago, One percent said:

Me neither but it's the exploitation. I've managed to get myself into a position where I am running a fairly large course, expected to publish, but with an over full teaching workload. When I have broached this with my boss, he has dismissed it out of hand and then accused me of just moaning.  Oh and then there was the comment that I was not committed. I have withdrawn from running the course with the reasons being that I'm not paid extra for it nor given the time to do it.  I wanted to be able to spend what spare time I have commenting on dosbods  writing.  The response was I would not be allowed to step down.  Oh how we laughed at that one. 

:)

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1 minute ago, One percent said:

Me neither but it's the exploitation. I've managed to get myself into a position where I am running a fairly large course, expected to publish, but with an over full teaching workload. When I have broached this with my boss, he has dismissed it out of hand and then accused me of just moaning.  Oh and then there was the comment that I was not committed. I have withdrawn from running the course with the reasons being that I'm not paid extra for it nor given the time to do it.  I wanted to be able to spend what spare time I have commenting on dosbods  writing.  The response was I would not be allowed to step down.  Oh how we laughed at that one. 

Ah, yes.

Ive been there a few years ago. I pointed out that my current load was over my contracted hours and they needed to employ an addiotnal head.

The solution was to give me a 2 day time management course, which was useless.

So I then then started my managing my commitments, which involved cutting work and get fixing a monthly plan.

The load was then put on the useless managers to come up with monthly requirements before a cut off date.

Fail to do that and they wait til the next month.

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Maybe it is just a simple statistical effect -- as you move towards 100% of the population having a degree you might expect average graduate capability/behaviours to worsen.

[I'm not entirely sure about this -- but in 'the olden days' there was a selection of 'people who did well at school' for higher education, which unfortunately did miss out the 'clever but not academically so' individuals.  Anyway, it probably can be assumed that 'the median person' now goes to uni, where in the past it was 'the above average' or 'fancy education' ones that did, which arguably would have been generically 'better' than median on aggregate.]

[The other point is, for some reason people (employers) think that higher education gives students some capability to work in the real world.  I've no idea where they've picked this up from.  For most jobs (not vocational or specifically 'clever' jobs) the stuff learnt in the 3 years is of no use whatsoever in the job.  Oh, there's lots of 'critical thinking' and 'analytical skills' and whatnot, but that's all fluff -- they could have got 90% of that with said 'clever' person going straight into employment at 18.]

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12 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Ah, yes.

Ive been there a few years ago. I pointed out that my current load was over my contracted hours and they needed to employ an addiotnal head.

The solution was to give me a 2 day time management course, which was useless.

So I then then started my managing my commitments, which involved cutting work and get fixing a monthly plan.

The load was then put on the useless managers to come up with monthly requirements before a cut off date.

Fail to do that and they wait til the next month.

I've started saying no and ignoring stuff. The worst of it is I'm not even on a full time contract but am expected to be available right across the week.  I do my three days now and then leave it all to the following week.  My inbox is looking pretty full. xD feck em. 

Edited by One percent
Grammar before cunning spots it.

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28 minutes ago, One percent said:

You are lucky.  I'm meant to write my appraisal before the meeting. It's carp.  This year I was so pissed off by the lack of support, it was essentially blank.  

The appraisal system is clearly a one-way process dressed up as two-way (like much of staff management, eg, thinks like the 'talkback session', which is mainly 'talkat').  The main thing is not to criticise the process, as (I've found) those in middle management to not really be capable of understanding why such processes aren't fantastic (because they're easily influenced by the kind of spiel spouted about in their training and aren't capable of the analytical thinking which might lead to them question the core tenets of the approach).

But, the system exists and they (middle managers) have to play by the rules, so take the opportunity to define training requirements for the period.  If you can't think of anything specific in your field (common in academia, because 'training' is baked into the way academia works) then think of something else that might be worthwhile or fun.  Eg, if you do fieldwork get them to send you on an off-road driving course.  

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Just goes to show a degree meas nothing.

If the CBI are so smart then why did they not invest everything they had in google and Apple stick 20 years ago?

My response to a CBI person I know is you have to decide on what skill set you need 10 years in advance.

If you cannot do that - and you cannot to be honest - then you only have 2 choices:

-Recruit about 3 people for every futre job you expect to need and train hem over 5-10 years. One will be good, one will be crap and one will leave.

Or come up with a skillset and pay what that person asks for. That will be determined by supply and demand of those skills.

You either have to plan long term and spend money a medium term. Or be prepared to cough up what someone with skills ask for, and hope you can recruit them.

Thats it.

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2 minutes ago, One percent said:

I've started saying no and ignoring stuff. The worst of it is I'm not even on a full time contract but am expected to be available right across the week.  I do my three days now and then leave it all to the following week.  My inbox is looking pretty full. xD feck em. 

Working three or four day weeks is probably the worst possible situation -- there is nearly always an assumption that you'll work as hard as the five day a week staff.  It takes very careful management of the managers to ensure that they don't think you're a slacker.  It pays to learn a few management speak replies like 'workload management' to throw at them every time you meet (formally), but it will never be easy.

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1 minute ago, dgul said:

The appraisal system is clearly a one-way process dressed up as two-way (like much of staff management, eg, thinks like the 'talkback session', which is mainly 'talkat').  The main thing is not to criticise the process, as (I've found) those in middle management to not really be capable of understanding why such processes aren't fantastic (because they're easily influenced by the kind of spiel spouted about in their training and aren't capable of the analytical thinking which might lead to them question the core tenets of the approach).

But, the system exists and they (middle managers) have to play by the rules, so take the opportunity to define training requirements for the period.  If you can't think of anything specific in your field (common in academia, because 'training' is baked into the way academia works) then think of something else that might be worthwhile or fun.  Eg, if you do fieldwork get them to send you on an off-road driving course.  

Good advice, thanks.  The reality is that I don't have the time for training.  Luckily though, I've got two employers. The better one has agreed to pay for career oaching.  I've had one appointment so far and it feels like it maybe a helpful process. 

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Had party chat this weekend with parent whose daughter attended open day at the same uni for the same degree course that I did. Her daughter returned really quite upset (prospect of attending local Uni apparently out the window). The presentation involved the uni staff eulogising about how great they were and their research and very little on what the course had to offer, with general perception that it was academic with almost no practical engineering / real world engineering. Feck me, 30 years and no change, told the parent they had a close shave, 

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