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sarahbell

Muslim gay wedding

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http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/11/first-gay-muslim-wedding-takes-place-in-the-uk-6769737/?ito=facebook
Although his family were’t present for the ceremony, He added: ‘My family doesn’t want to come on the day, they just don’t want to see it, it’s too embarrassing for them.’
Choudhury says that some of his family dismiss his sexuality and happy relationship with Sean as a ‘disease’ or a phase.
Jahed Choudhury, 24, and Sean Rogan, 19, 
Good luck to them. 


 

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Good for them. However..

He added: ‘I want to say to all people going through the same thing that’s it’s okay – we’re going to show the whole world that you can be gay and Muslim.’


 

I just don't get this thing about being gay and Muslim, or being gay and Christian.

Being gay isn't a choice. Belonging to a club which really doesn't like you very much or would like to see you, and others like you, dead, is a choice.

It's certainly brave, or maybe misguided to go through with this and draw attention to it. I know that it takes "pioneers" to "rock the boat" to move towards equality and they are that.

But religion is not some corporeal "of the body" thing. It is "of the mind". So I just think it more logical to renounce the religion and move on with life. Mind you that's quite a big step when that would probably mean you have no family any more and it's easy for me to say and perhaps less easy to do.

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8 minutes ago, DTMark said:

Good for them. However..

 

 

 

I just don't get this thing about being gay and Muslim, or being gay and Christian.

Being gay isn't a choice. Belonging to a club which really doesn't like you very much or would like to see you, and others like you, dead, is a choice.

It's certainly brave, or maybe misguided to go through with this and draw attention to it. I know that it takes "pioneers" to "rock the boat" to move towards equality and they are that.

But religion is not some corporeal "of the body" thing. It is "of the mind". So I just think it more logical to renounce the religion and move on with life. Mind you that's quite a big step when that would probably mean you have no family any more and it's easy for me to say and perhaps less easy to do.

I agree but you have to remember that the indoctrination is basically from birth and lifelong with all those around them following the same mindset. It becomes the whole of who they are. I suspect few would even comprehend that they can not be a muslim and as we see, even fewer get to the point of rejecting it.

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This is nonsense.  I've been to weddings where one person was Muslim and gay.  Presumably this is just the first one that the journo had heard of.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DTMark said:

Good for them. However..

 

 

 

I just don't get this thing about being gay and Muslim, or being gay and Christian.

Being gay isn't a choice. Belonging to a club which really doesn't like you very much or would like to see you, and others like you, dead, is a choice.

It's certainly brave, or maybe misguided to go through with this and draw attention to it. I know that it takes "pioneers" to "rock the boat" to move towards equality and they are that.

But religion is not some corporeal "of the body" thing. It is "of the mind". So I just think it more logical to renounce the religion and move on with life. Mind you that's quite a big step when that would probably mean you have no family any more and it's easy for me to say and perhaps less easy to do.

I think many UK Muslims are very much of the "token" variety. 

It's mostly family, tradition, friends etc.

I think lots of them really couldn't give too much of a toss about the deeper workings of Islam. 

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1 hour ago, DTMark said:

Good for them. However..

 

 

 

I just don't get this thing about being gay and Muslim, or being gay and Christian.

Being gay isn't a choice. Belonging to a club which really doesn't like you very much or would like to see you, and others like you, dead, is a choice.

It's certainly brave, or maybe misguided to go through with this and draw attention to it. I know that it takes "pioneers" to "rock the boat" to move towards equality and they are that.

But religion is not some corporeal "of the body" thing. It is "of the mind". So I just think it more logical to renounce the religion and move on with life. Mind you that's quite a big step when that would probably mean you have no family any more and it's easy for me to say and perhaps less easy to do.

I agree with you about being gay not being a choice but I would also argue that religion, in terms of faith and belief rather than lip service and observance of rituals, is also not a choice.

People can suddenly "get" religion or, as the song goes, "lose" religion.  I don't see faith as a choice but rather as being as intrinsic to a person as their sexuality.

What you then do with your faith, or sexuality, is however your choice.  I have no idea for this particular case but the idea that you can simply renounce some of your core beliefs is incorrect unless they're not actually your core beliefs in the first place.

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

I agree with you about being gay not being a choice but I would also argue that religion, in terms of faith and belief rather than lip service and observance of rituals, is also not a choice.

People can suddenly "get" religion or, as the song goes, "lose" religion.  I don't see faith as a choice but rather as being as intrinsic to a person as their sexuality.

What you then do with your faith, or sexuality, is however your choice.  I have no idea for this particular case but the idea that you can simply renounce some of your core beliefs is incorrect unless they're not actually your core beliefs in the first place.

It's like Brexit. We leave, but keep the bits we want.

We're still the same people afterwards.

Mind you I have never "got" religion. Maybe that's why I sometimes feel that there's a big empty space in my life ;) 

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3 minutes ago, DTMark said:

It's like Brexit. We leave, but keep the bits we want.

We're still the same people afterwards.

Mind you I have never "got" religion. Maybe that's why I sometimes feel that there's a big empty space in my life ;) 

I think you believe what you believe and it is a part of you.  I would always suggest that people give religion a chance to see if opening themselves to it changes what they believe.  I think school RE lessons in a way close minds because it's cool and rebellious to start challenging everything and refusing to believe in anything; though this means that people paint themselves into a corner of rigid unbelief instead.

Though I wouldn't suggest this to anyone quoting Dawkins and rambling on about sky fairies and citing the bizarre actions of some medieval Pope.  They have no interest in properly discussing anything.

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8 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think you believe what you believe and it is a part of you.  I would always suggest that people give religion a chance to see if opening themselves to it changes what they believe.  I think school RE lessons in a way close minds because it's cool and rebellious to start challenging everything and refusing to believe in anything; though this means that people paint themselves into a corner of rigid unbelief instead.

Though I wouldn't suggest this to anyone quoting Dawkins and rambling on about sky fairies and citing the bizarre actions of some medieval Pope.  They have no interest in properly discussing anything.

I agree.  Since I let his noodley holiness into my life, and accepted the importance of pasta based meals into my daily routine, I feel much calmer.

https://www.venganza.org/

 

seriously, fuck those mentally retarded idiots who think that any religion is true or that a kind God exists.  Government should be banging home the message that it is all lies based on the ramblings of madmen from centuries ago.  

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Lord Waheed Alli, the first openly gay Muslim MP and successful businessman (ASOS etc), had to extricate himself from his previous life completely because of "the tolerance" from his former "tolerant community".

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18 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think you believe what you believe and it is a part of you.  I would always suggest that people give religion a chance to see if opening themselves to it changes what they believe.  I think school RE lessons in a way close minds because it's cool and rebellious to start challenging everything and refusing to believe in anything; though this means that people paint themselves into a corner of rigid unbelief instead.

Though I wouldn't suggest this to anyone quoting Dawkins and rambling on about sky fairies and citing the bizarre actions of some medieval Pope.  They have no interest in properly discussing anything.

I can't speak for others but RE lessons for me were a borefest, the vicar was widely believed to be a weirdo and possible paedophile. The language is arcane and the concepts appear as being out of date. I assume this is why Islamic schools rule with the whip under the omnipresent threat of physical violence: the Koran is as esoteric as the Bible and this is the only way to focus the minds of 9 year-olds.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think you believe what you believe and it is a part of you.  I would always suggest that people give religion a chance to see if opening themselves to it changes what they believe.  I think school RE lessons in a way close minds because it's cool and rebellious to start challenging everything and refusing to believe in anything; though this means that people paint themselves into a corner of rigid unbelief instead.

Though I wouldn't suggest this to anyone quoting Dawkins and rambling on about sky fairies and citing the bizarre actions of some medieval Pope.  They have no interest in properly discussing anything.

RE lessons in school (2x kids going through it now) are just about the worst form of inclusionist claptrap I can imagine.

I'm all for theology -- there is lots to be learnt from the way religions work and evolve.  And I'm all for practical education about religions -- there is an awful lot of ignorance out there, even regarding Christianity, let alone the other world religions.

But what my kiddos are learning is all about the veneer -- oh, look, Jews sometimes wear hats, and Muslims go to Mecca on occasion and Hindus like cows (but not to eat them).  It is just 45 minutes a week wasted on some deep social engineering experiment. 

As I tell my 13 year old daughter, for example -- you can't even start to understand Christianity without an understanding of the role of the 4th century Council of Nicaea and you can't start to understand Islam without an understanding of the Ali succession.  She gets a bit fed up with me sometimes.

The trouble is, of course, that informing children about all religions properly (including the children of religious folk) would result in far too many questions about the actual nature of religion, which itself would likely result in mass atheism.  I guess some in power actually want this, while others want indoctrination into a single religion -- and we're left with a crazy halfway house which does absolutely nothing useful.

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2 minutes ago, dgul said:

RE lessons in school (2x kids going through it now) are just about the worst form of inclusionist claptrap I can imagine.

I'm all for theology -- there is lots to be learnt from the way religions work and evolve.  And I'm all for practical education about religions -- there is an awful lot of ignorance out there, even regarding Christianity, let alone the other world religions.

But what my kiddos are learning is all about the veneer -- oh, look, Jews sometimes wear hats, and Muslims go to Mecca on occasion and Hindus like cows (but not to eat them).  It is just 45 minutes a week wasted on some deep social engineering experiment. 

As I tell my 13 year old daughter, for example -- you can't even start to understand Christianity without an understanding of the role of the 4th century Council of Nicaea and you can't start to understand Islam without an understanding of the Ali succession.  She gets a bit fed up with me sometimes.

The trouble is, of course, that informing children about all religions properly (including the children of religious folk) would result in far too many questions about the actual nature of religion, which itself would likely result in mass atheism.  I guess some in power actually want this, while others want indoctrination into a single religion -- and we're left with a crazy halfway house which does absolutely nothing useful.

This.

RE at my school was just an excuse to mock other religions (seriously) without questioning christianity.  That was a long time ago.  Now, from what I can see, it is to push the message that all religions are equal and a matter of sensible people making choices.

in other words, bullshit.

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12 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

I think you believe what you believe and it is a part of you.  I would always suggest that people give religion a chance to see if opening themselves to it changes what they believe.  I think school RE lessons in a way close minds because it's cool and rebellious to start challenging everything and refusing to believe in anything; though this means that people paint themselves into a corner of rigid unbelief instead.

Though I wouldn't suggest this to anyone quoting Dawkins and rambling on about sky fairies and citing the bizarre actions of some medieval Pope.  They have no interest in properly discussing anything.

I think NTB and you are coming from a similar standpoint on this.

I didn't have a religious upbringing. Parents just didn't do God. My mother's mother did - she was a Catholic. She'd take me to church (was perhaps aged about 5) but I actually found the whole experience quite sinister and asked not to go any more. None of my friends were religious. It has simply never featured in my life in any significant way.

I don't know what I believe. I prefer the assertion that I simply "do not know". When I hear an argument that something is true, the devil in me (no pun intended) looks for the counter-argument and then seeks to come down on one side or the other. Which is clearly based on something - my own prejudices and tendencies. How I am "wired up".

For example, a few nights ago there was a BBC4 programme about the search for extra-terrestrial life. "Are we alone?"

I think we may be close to finding evidence that there was life on Mars. But in the question, we don't really mean "bacteria", we mean "aliens that are something like us".

The likelihood that we are alone is ridiculously small to non-existent. But if we assert this, we also assert that the human race cannot be unique. That uniqueness is not a possibility in the universe because it is so large. Really? I may be close to arguing the "God" position here. The brain flicks between both positions and comes down on the side of the former argument while recognising, even proposing, the latter is a possibility.

My brain will not allow me to suppose one or the other. We just don't know. I don't know. I don't have a need to formulate my own version of a belief or faith nor subscribe to a ready-prepared one.

However..

I believe that being gay is not a choice because I didn't wake up one morning and make a decision. So far as I know, I was born this way. I take the same evidence-based view, but here, I'm coming from only one standpoint and that is my own. My perception is my reality. 

Again, science doesn't have the answer to this. Science believes this may be related to a particular gene that comes from the mother's side. Actually, we understand so little about the human mind.

One day, science might well prove that nobody is born gay. That doesn't mean that to be so is a deliberate, conscious choice. Something else comes into play.

And, even if science proved that tomorrow, it wouldn't make any difference to me because I cannot find women sexually attractive in any way. I know that wouldn't change. "We are what we are".

In this respect, so long as nobody asserts that their world/humanity view or outlook is right (and I'm not suggesting for one moment that either of you are doing so nor, actually, disagreeing: nothing that I have written makes be "better" nor "cleverer" than you) then everyone can just get along and respect our differences. (It is not important to me that anyone agrees with me. Sadly, this seems to be where multi-culturalism goes awry in some circumstances -  see thread title).

Which for some mean that evidence is the only thing that convinces and yet others feel some need for a "connection that goes beyond the corporeal body".

And who knows - to come back to the point you made - I may feel the need for such a connection at some point.

Edited by DTMark

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I won't quote all of that @DTMark but the key line for me is "I don't know what I believe".  This is a perfectly reasonable position but in holding that position then you are indeed going to view the existence of God on a par with the existence of aliens - weighing the evidence and applying logic.

Whereas most religious people that I know have a very strong belief that does not rest upon an academic debate any more than your being gay rests upon the logic of not wanting to have to always be the one putting your hand in your pocket to pay for drinks, meals, entrance fees, bridge tolls, snacks, taxi fares, bus tickets, train tickets, petrol, and parking tickets as you would have to do if you were in a relationship with a woman.

It is part of who you are.

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1 minute ago, BLOOLOO said:

Milo used this argument for peadophiles, and he was forced to disappear for a while.

Surely he's right; hence the therapy programmes to try to remove those urges as there were and are similar programmes to remove homosexuality.

However just because something is part of what you are does not necessarily make it acceptable or excusable; Denis Nilsen liked murdering young gay men.

Homosexuality is now mostly accepted in UK society because, whether or not you agree with it, it doesn't damage other people unlike paedophiles or Denis Nilsen.

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1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

Surely he's right; hence the therapy programmes to try to remove those urges as there were and are similar programmes to remove homosexuality.

However just because something is part of what you are does not necessarily make it acceptable or excusable; Denis Nilsen liked murdering young gay men.

Homosexuality is now mostly accepted in UK society because, whether or not you agree with it, it doesn't damage other people unlike paedophiles or Denis Nilsen.

Im convinced he is right.  After all, a hetero man finds the act of homosexual sex personally revolting. 

Its a question of what you find stimulating. 

If you find young children stimulate you sexually, then it is a natural urge you either learned or were born with. If it was learned, and Im not sure how, then it can be unlearned. If its a natural urge, hiding it will make you frustrated.

As you say, treatments for gayness didnt work for those that had it in their wiring.

But also, people who attack children are specially hated by all the community, and always have done...meaning that peadophilia, whilst natural in cause, has an equally natural defence....viscious and avenging communities.

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