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Inoperational Bumblebee

Anecdotal - perhaps this is why the NHS is on its arse

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Spoke to a mate earlier who is a nurse, recently changed trust. New hospital, and says there are posters everywhere advertising that you can work agency as a nurse as a limited company effectively paying no tax, earning £60-70k pa. Reckons this is why they are leaving in droves.

Anyone else aware of this? Thoughts on if this is actually the case?

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Wrong on a number of fronts, there is no such thing as paying no tax when working as a limited company. VAT will change hands, corporation tax will be paid, dividend tax will be paid as well as income tax and some NI unless you can live on less than 10K per year. Corporation tax bill will be larger if you don't pay yourself i.e. profit retained in the company.

If it is run above board by a reputable accountant the difference these days (including accountants fees) is about 10%

The rest is supply and demand, if the Trusts/NHS payed near the going rate for front-line staff there would be no incentive to work as Agency/Supply.

This is entirely a problem of their own making, I work in Engineering Design and due to companies outsourcing everything to the supply chain no-one can afford to carry Engineers and Designers as the workload rockets up and down, this is entirely due to how the game works.

The problem with the NHS is that it is now infested with accountants/managers unaccountably playing at running it as a business where cost cutting a penny pinching is seen as the easy way to manage a budget.

They are probably now resorting to the slave labour of students and what the teaching profession refer to as YECK staff, Young, Energetic, Cheap & Keen.

If you have the experience and knowledge fucking leave, forget sacrificing yourself on the altar of altruism, its not worth it, the management are probably deliberately taking the piss out of you whilst lining their own pockets.

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

They are verselling self-employment.

Theyd be cuaght out by IRS35

Exactly, caught between a rock and a hard beauracratic nightmare of a place. The stitch up is complete, as long as the NHS exists it will pay lower skilled workers (compared to sugeons and doctors) as little as possible.

National Pay-scales systematically do this as you are dealing with a monopoly employer. If the private sector got fully involved in health-care it would be no better.

The UK is not really a first world country as far as working people are concerned and never has been.

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1 minute ago, Chewing Grass said:

Exactly, caught between a rock and a hard beauracratic nightmare of a place. The stitch up is complete, as long as the NHS exists it will pay lower skilled workers (compared to sugeons and doctors) as little as possible.

National Pay-scales systematically do this as you are dealing with a monopoly employer. If the private sector got fully involved in health-care it would be no better.

The UK is not really a first world country as far as working people are concerned and never has been.

True.

If health care was ~40/40 public private then the Niurses would get a lot better deal.

But Jezza knows best.

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53 minutes ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

I was under that impression, but if there aren't enough available through that...

well run hospitals with current employed staff only. make people wait until nurses are gainfully employed via nhs.

 

and cut the number of nurses in NHS.
Went via a private company for an assessment and saw receptíoist and then the doctor. no halfndozen nurses floating about to weigh me and measure my height wrong.

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1 hour ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Spoke to a mate earlier who is a nurse, recently changed trust. New hospital, and says there are posters everywhere advertising that you can work agency as a nurse as a limited company effectively paying no tax, earning £60-70k pa. Reckons this is why they are leaving in droves.

Anyone else aware of this? Thoughts on if this is actually the case?

I'll ask Mrs H. tomorrow as she's just signed up with an agency for a few shifts to do this very thing.

Those numbers aren't right though, we did discuss what the hourly rate was and I'm pretty sure it wasn't anywhere near that. It would also depend on whether they had the hours to give you - which, from the impression I got, they do.

The real moneyspinner are the middle managers and general bean-counters resigning then returning to the exact same job as contractors on 4X the salary. I know someone who did this and their current salary is fucking insane.

Edited by Sgt Hartman

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I hear a lot of stuff in my town about the NHS from a variety of perspectives

A few months ago I heard a tale from a local person who sits on a voluntary committee to supposedly improve cancer services. I know both people involved in the tale. One was a person aggrieved by lack of provision and length of time to diagnosis. The other  was a long time health service manager.

The comment that made me feel disheartened was from the voluntary board person about the manager in the meeting...."She sat there with nothing to say or offer, just sitting waiting for her pension!"

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50 minutes ago, Sgt Hartman said:

I'll ask Mrs H. tomorrow as she's just signed up with an agency for a few shifts to do this very thing.

Those numbers aren't right though, we did discuss what the hourly rate was and I'm pretty sure it wasn't anywhere near that. It would also depend on whether they had the hours to give you - which, from the impression I got, they do.

The real moneyspinner are the middle managers and general bean-counters resigning then returning to the exact same job as contractors on 4X the salary. I know someone who did this and their current salary is fucking insane.

Maybe she is planning on stuffing her running away fund. :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

Wrong on a number of fronts, there is no such thing as paying no tax when working as a limited company. VAT will change hands, corporation tax will be paid, dividend tax will be paid as well as income tax and some NI unless you can live on less than 10K per year. Corporation tax bill will be larger if you don't pay yourself i.e. profit retained in the company.

If it is run above board by a reputable accountant the difference these days (including accountants fees) is about 10%

The rest is supply and demand, if the Trusts/NHS payed near the going rate for front-line staff there would be no incentive to work as Agency/Supply.

This is entirely a problem of their own making, I work in Engineering Design and due to companies outsourcing everything to the supply chain no-one can afford to carry Engineers and Designers as the workload rockets up and down, this is entirely due to how the game works.

The problem with the NHS is that it is now infested with accountants/managers unaccountably playing at running it as a business where cost cutting a penny pinching is seen as the easy way to manage a budget.

They are probably now resorting to the slave labour of students and what the teaching profession refer to as YECK staff, Young, Energetic, Cheap & Keen.

If you have the experience and knowledge fucking leave, forget sacrificing yourself on the altar of altruism, its not worth it, the management are probably deliberately taking the piss out of you whilst lining their own pockets.

That post resonates with my life experience in so many ways.

Nice one Chewy.

 

XYY

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7 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

Wrong on a number of fronts, there is no such thing as paying no tax when working as a limited company. VAT will change hands, corporation tax will be paid, dividend tax will be paid as well as income tax and some NI unless you can live on less than 10K per year. Corporation tax bill will be larger if you don't pay yourself i.e. profit retained in the company.

If it is run above board by a reputable accountant the difference these days (including accountants fees) is about 10%

The rest is supply and demand, if the Trusts/NHS payed near the going rate for front-line staff there would be no incentive to work as Agency/Supply.

This is entirely a problem of their own making, I work in Engineering Design and due to companies outsourcing everything to the supply chain no-one can afford to carry Engineers and Designers as the workload rockets up and down, this is entirely due to how the game works.

The problem with the NHS is that it is now infested with accountants/managers unaccountably playing at running it as a business where cost cutting a penny pinching is seen as the easy way to manage a budget.

They are probably now resorting to the slave labour of students and what the teaching profession refer to as YECK staff, Young, Energetic, Cheap & Keen.

If you have the experience and knowledge fucking leave, forget sacrificing yourself on the altar of altruism, its not worth it, the management are probably deliberately taking the piss out of you whilst lining their own pockets.

Thing is, in the real world of profit making. competing firms 0 at least the ones Ive worked for - the number of middle management and lawyers is very very very low.

For a non profit, competing org link the NHS, the actual demand for middle man + accountants ought to be low.

Sure there needs to be some management and accounting, but the actual people can be designed out.

The only recentish experience was arriving at a smallish compnay that, somehow, had acquire general counsel (in house lawyer) who, somehwere along the lines had decided that the legal dept could be a major profit  centre. Cue the number of lawyers going up 10 fold, who the workers were meant to generate patents and the lawyers would beat ut license revenue from form other countries.

Totally fucking insane. The org did not have the cash flow to last a long legal battle with a larger companyt. The current cash flow collapsed as most people were generating patents rather work and support. Then the patent laws started to change and the whole business of  patents farming died. A otal fucking mess and wa wates of 5 years where the compnay could have been trading more and developing products.

In short, the are some jobs where the demand for them is very low - lawyer and middlemnagement. Orgs need to gut them to stop them fucking up the org.

 

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8 hours ago, Sgt Hartman said:

I'll ask Mrs H. tomorrow as she's just signed up with an agency for a few shifts to do this very thing.

Those numbers aren't right though, we did discuss what the hourly rate was and I'm pretty sure it wasn't anywhere near that. It would also depend on whether they had the hours to give you - which, from the impression I got, they do.

The real moneyspinner are the middle managers and general bean-counters resigning then returning to the exact same job as contractors on 4X the salary. I know someone who did this and their current salary is fucking insane.

If they are a contractor they won't have a salary other than whatever they pay themselves through a LTD company.

Also being in the public sector they are now almost certain to be within IR35 - as it's now the client who decides (total sham but another story altogether) so their tax burdon will be pretty high.

I'm sure they still earn decent money though. 

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With the recent changes, they won't be able to go limited. They will have to go an approved umbrella / PAYE. We had locums phoning us, complaining about how much less they will get paid, but it's the government's doing. Some trusts are having difficulty filling vacancies because it's not as attractive as it was previously. 

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