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Ventilators


TheBlueCat
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/14/boris-johnson-puts-industry-war-footing-equip-nhs-battle-ahead/

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In an unprecedented peacetime call to arms, the Prime Minister is asking manufacturers including Rolls Royce and JCB to transform their current production lines to help produce ventilators as part of a "national effort" to tackle the virus.

Only problem is...

https://www.regdesk.co/overview-medical-device-regulations-united-kingdom/

Even if JCB et al can retool quick enough to make ventilators what are the odds of a bunch of jobsworths making it impossible for anyone to use them for weeks while they fuck about?

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7 minutes ago, ccc said:

I have zero medical training or experience yet I knew this about a month ago. :ph34r:

The government - well Dom at least - will presumably know about it too. It could be an interesting battle of wills with the civil service to watch for. Personally, I'd go with "approve the fucking things otherwise you, your family, your friends, and all their associates are back of the queue for treatment and we'll announce that on TV". Probably they'll let people die instead.

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Happy Renting

I have a pulse oximeter I bought a couple of years ago purely because I am a gadget geek.

I have had a cough fo weeks, and feel a bit short of breath so I am self-isolating.

I note that my%SpO2 drops to about 91-92, but improves if I open up windows in my flat. I guess fresh air is good for me.

What exactly do ventilators do? I could lash up a face mask with a hose feed easily; I don't have access to pure oxygen but air would be better than nothing.

What pressures over normal atmospheric do these things work at? I would assume a couple of extra psi would work?

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Happy Renting

Yeah, looking into it I dojn't think I will try.

They require a tube inserted in the windpipe. Self-administering that without a sedative would be a non-starter, especially if I was coughing.

Open windows it is then.

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Lightly Toasted
4 hours ago, TheBlueCat said:

The government - well Dom at least - will presumably know about it too. It could be an interesting battle of wills with the civil service to watch for. Personally, I'd go with "approve the fucking things otherwise you, your family, your friends, and all their associates are back of the queue for treatment and we'll announce that on TV". Probably they'll let people die instead.

I wonder exactly what the regs mean by "device" and "manufacturer", i.e. if a registered manufacturer outsources production of an existing design, does that require a new registration? I wouldn't have thought so but you never know with the EU.

Personally I don't think this will be a problem, or if it is then it will be brushed aside. The problem is going to be capacity, not paperwork.

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Boris and Matt are talking through their arse.

Even if their was some expertise (which there is not) in developing medical devices and manufacturing them here.

There are not enough extra Intensive Care staff to operate them.

Bluff or BS take your pick.

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1 minute ago, Lightly Toasted said:

Personally I don't think this will be a problem, or if it is then it will be brushed aside. The problem is going to be capacity, not paperwork.

I really hope you're right about that but I would never underestimate the capacity of the British civil service and regulatory bodies to be insanely obstructionist. I have a small amount of experience in the medical devices space and the paperwork requirements for certification are unreal. 

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30 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said:

I have a small amount of experience in the medical devices space and the paperwork requirements for certification are unreal. 

Yes they are.

Getting relatively a simple device developed from scratch and passed by the MHRA would take years.

The UK have not been in developing medical devices for DECADES as for complex medical devices like vents forget it.

Pure BS from Boris and Matt.

 

Edited by JackieO
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11 minutes ago, Vendetta said:

Rolls Royce and other companies are trying to rapidly manufacture them now to meet future demand. Is that correct? 

Like the famine roads in Ireland , disguised bail out to give redundant workers something to day imho 

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6 hours ago, TheBlueCat said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/14/boris-johnson-puts-industry-war-footing-equip-nhs-battle-ahead/

Only problem is...

https://www.regdesk.co/overview-medical-device-regulations-united-kingdom/

Even if JCB et al can retool quick enough to make ventilators what are the odds of a bunch of jobsworths making it impossible for anyone to use them for weeks while they fuck about?

Emergency powers.  Regulations won't matter. 

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the gardener

I don't know who makes ventilators but whining on that they only have X amount of capacity is a bit stupid. The current level of output is at tha level to meet demand. If the demand rises and orders flood in then they can ramp up output. They are made from fairly common components, it's not like they have to mine Martian asteroids for the parts. When there's a will, there's a way. Just takes a bit of effort and for people to pull their thumbs out of their arse. 

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MrLibertyRedux
52 minutes ago, 201p said:

We can't build new hospitals - but we can build the ventilators. We have to be seen to be doing something.

I'm not convinced. Don't know enough about the devices but do know they will be somewhat more complicated than pressing metal sheets and piecing together a Sten gun.

Even then you need the trained staff to deploy them.

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1 minute ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

I'm not convinced. Don't know enough about the devices but do know they will be somewhat more complicated than pressing metal sheets and piecing together a Sten gun.

Even then you need the trained staff to deploy them.

This country is jam packed with small engineering firms who can create the tooling. Devices can be simple, single function. It's not new technology.

Training is equally simple. You don't need qualified nurses. Just people trained in the specifics of using this particular device on this particular disease. A day or two at most. 

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MrLibertyRedux
1 minute ago, MvR said:

This country is jam packed with small engineering firms who can create the tooling. Devices can be simple, single function. It's not new technology.

Sure, but the only way this can be put in place is by the state organising it (realistically). Banking on them having the ability to do this in the time frames required is wildly optimistic if my previous experience in gov't is anything to go by - I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

1 minute ago, MvR said:

Training is equally simple. You don't need qualified nurses. Just people trained in the specifics of using this particular device on this particular disease. A day or two at most. 

I suspect once it gets to the stage that people need respirators the overall level of care required will be somewhat more complex than that. Are you a medic of some description? I would again be happy to be proved wrong.

 

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1 hour ago, JackieO said:

Yes they are.

Getting relatively a simple device developed from scratch and passed by the MHRA would take years.

The UK have not been in developing medical devices for DECADES as for complex medical devices like vents forget it.

Pure BS from Boris and Matt.

 

I vote that this talk of getting extra ventilators supplied is bullshit. Trying to appear to be doing something that’s all.

 

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27 minutes ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

Sure, but the only way this can be put in place is by the state organising it (realistically). Banking on them having the ability to do this in the time frames required is wildly optimistic if my previous experience in gov't is anything to go by - I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

I suspect once it gets to the stage that people need respirators the overall level of care required will be somewhat more complex than that. Are you a medic of some description? I would again be happy to be proved wrong.

No not a medic, but used to working in innovative areas with really smart people solving hard problems with immovable deadlines, and as someone posted above, where there is a will, there is a way.

The government doesn't micro-manage and organise the whole thing. They summon the expertise together and provide whatever is required. They source materials, requisition factories, remove regulations, IP laws, or whatever else is required. 

In terms of timing.. A couple of days to identify the right people across the relevant areas. 3 days later they're locked in a room brainstorming. Within the week prototypes are being tested. Within 2 weeks the design is locked down. Tooling the following couple of weeks, while the materials and workers are gathered, and  then you've got multiple production lines cranking them out. 

It's a posh valve with extra gubbins, not a space ship. They may be a mystery to people who aren't engineers who design oxygen ventilators for a living, but to those who do, they'll obviously be perfectly simple contraptions. 

Edited by MvR
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2 minutes ago, MvR said:

No not a medic, but used to working in innovative areas, solving hard problems with unmovable deadlines, and as someone posted above, where there is a will, there is a way.

The government doesn't micro-manage and organise the whole thing. They summon the expertise together and provide whatever is required. The source materials, requisition factories, remove regulations, or whatever else.

In terms of timing.. A couple of days to identify the right people across the relevant areas. 3 ays later they're locked in a room brainstorming. Within the week prototypes are being tested. Within 2 weeks the design is locked down. Tooling the following couple of weeks, while the materials and workers are gathered, and  then you've got multiple production lines cranking them out. 

It's a posh valve with extra gubbins, not a space ship. They may be a mystery to people who aren't engineers who design oxygen ventilators for a living, but to those who do, they'll obviously be perfectly simple contraptions. 

I believe your assessment and proposed plan/timescale to be true on the ability to provide more ventilators. Unfortunately I have no confidence that the government have the ability or even the will to implement such an undertaking. 

 

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31 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

Surely this is just a ruse to try and make people believe Boris cares about plebs dying?

Even if we had the ventilators we don't have enough trained staff to operate them.  Needs specialist nursing care.

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8 minutes ago, Van Lady said:

I believe your assessment and proposed plan/timescale to be true on the ability to provide more ventilators. Unfortunately I have no confidence that the government have the ability or even the will to implement such an undertaking. 

 

Since Rolls Royce and JCB are already involved, it sounds like implemention is well underway.  They'll be tooling and prototyping as we speak, if not already cranking up production lines for parts they have locked down. This will have been planned weeks ago.

Edited by MvR
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2 minutes ago, MvR said:

Since Rolls Royce and JCB are already involved, it sounds like implementing is well underway.  They'll be tooling and prototyping as we speak, if not already cranking up production lines for parts they have locked down. This will have been planned weeks ago.

Thank you. I hope to see good reports in the future about this enterprise.

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