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Empty non-coronavirus beds raise fears that sickest are avoiding NHS

Hospitals report steep drop in attendances for life-threatening conditions such as heart attacks

https://www.ft.com/content/d5ac0a79-6647-4f49-bb64-d1cc66362043



NHS England said that across the country, about 60 per cent of beds in acute hospitals were currently occupied. A year ago the equivalent figure was a little over 90 per cent.

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b4726df0-7b36-11ea-a6be-99087303b169-sta

 

Or .....

Having a free at the point of use health service increases demand by ~30%

Id be lookign at big chages is acute bed demand isuddenly shtrinks bv 30%. Maybe OAPs ought to pay for their holidays?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, assetrichcashpoor said:

Are the same people who would have gone to A&E with a heart attack going to ICU with covid19 instead?

Id guess heart attack are still goign to AnE - theyd probably get a good out come.

However .... the other 90% of none emergency who make up the majority of  AnE cases, mainly daft single mums, town drunks and stupid OAPs, are no longer turning up.

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There is all sorts of things that are generally fine but the NHS would rather you got checked out rather than risk making it worse by waiting to see if it gets better. They'd rather see nine people with heartburn than the person having a heart attack stay home, asthma attacks will often improve by themselves but they'd rather give nine people a quick nebulizer and send them home than the person who needed hospital admission get to the point of needing an ICU bed etc etc. 

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16 minutes ago, This Time said:

There is all sorts of things that are generally fine but the NHS would rather you got checked out rather than risk making it worse by waiting to see if it gets better. They'd rather see nine people with heartburn than the person having a heart attack stay home, 

I woke one morning feeling unwell. My left arm ached and my chest felt unusual, with a dull ache. I checked my blood pressure. This was soon after my doctor warned me that I'm hypertensive. My bp then was 200/105,  much higher than usual. Rather than wait a few weeks to see a GP I trotted along to A&E. 

A doctor did examine me and found nothing untoward. The triage nurse was most unsympathetic and made sure I knew how displeased she was with me wasting their time. It was early morning and I was one of a small number in the waiting area.

 

 

Edited by sleepwello'nights
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23 minutes ago, OurDayWillCome said:

That explains the endless stream of TikTok videos showings ED staff, fully clad in PPE gear, doing dance routines at work.

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I short, yes.

Theyll have spent one 12h shift rehearsing that.

Nothing to do.

Even if they have a ward full of people on ventis, they'll just shove a couple in to check on the machines before legging it.

 

 

 

27 minutes ago, This Time said:

There is all sorts of things that are generally fine but the NHS would rather you got checked out rather than risk making it worse by waiting to see if it gets better. They'd rather see nine people with heartburn than the person having a heart attack stay home, asthma attacks will often improve by themselves but they'd rather give nine people a quick nebulizer and send them home than the person who needed hospital admission get to the point of needing an ICU bed etc etc. 

I agree.

Heart attacks are easy to triage.

But people with heartburn who think they are having a heart attack dont make up many of AnE admissions.

 

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1 hour ago, This Time said:

There is all sorts of things that are generally fine but the NHS would rather you got checked out rather than risk making it worse by waiting to see if it gets better. They'd rather see nine people with heartburn than the person having a heart attack stay home, asthma attacks will often improve by themselves but they'd rather give nine people a quick nebulizer and send them home than the person who needed hospital admission get to the point of needing an ICU bed etc etc. 

The NHS might well 'rather' all that, but it doesn't work in a way to support it.

The NHS splits the population into three groups.  The first group massively abuses the system, particularly at A&E level; the NHS puts in systems to stop the abuse, but it mainly affects the other two groups.  The second group massively overuses resources and bogs down the system, particularly at GP level; the NHS puts in systems to manage this overuse, but it mainly affects the other two groups.   The third, and largest, group doesn't really interact with the health service that much, because the other two groups make it all so painful -- so you end up with a ridiculous situation where the real at-risk-of-heart-attack person doesn't visit the GP for a checkup (because you can't readily get an appointment) or visit the A&E department (because everyone knows they're a nightmare that are best avoided).

The NHS could readily put in effective blockers to these abuses and overuses, but it doesn't because it behaves like a commercial organisation and can use the effects of these misuses to lobby for more cash, each and every year.

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1 minute ago, dgul said:

The NHS might well 'rather' all that, but it doesn't work in a way to support it.

The NHS splits the population into three groups.  The first group massively abuses the system, particularly at A&E level; the NHS puts in systems to stop the abuse, but it mainly affects the other two groups.  The second group massively overuses resources and bogs down the system, particularly at GP level; the NHS puts in systems to manage this overuse, but it mainly affects the other two groups.   The third, and largest, group doesn't really interact with the health service that much, because the other two groups make it all so painful -- so you end up with a ridiculous situation where the real at-risk-of-heart-attack person doesn't visit the GP for a checkup (because you can't readily get an appointment) or visit the A&E department (because everyone knows they're a nightmare that are best avoided).

The NHS could readily put in effective blockers to these abuses and overuses, but it doesn't because it behaves like a commercial organisation and can use the effects of these misuses to lobby for more cash, each and every year.

What measures could they put in?

Don't say charging as that would almost certainly affect only the people who don't abuse it. 

Everyone else would get s bleeding heart freebie. 

 

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1 minute ago, sarahbell said:

What measures could they put in?

Don't say charging as that would almost certainly affect only the people who don't abuse it. 

Everyone else would get s bleeding heart freebie. 

 

For A&E they could have a system of insisting on group-therapy sessions for frequent abusers, with sanctions if they don't attend (a bit like the speeding courses -- the assumption is that people who abuse A&E don't actually know that what they're doing isn't 'normal').  They could also demand ID and charge people if they weren't entitled to use the service (and chase up the charges properly).

For GPs they could have a system of 'escalating hassle', where the system was easier/faster to use for people who never used it, and introducing delays etc for those who use it more frequently.

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32 minutes ago, dgul said:

For A&E they could have a system of insisting on group-therapy sessions for frequent abusers, with sanctions if they don't attend (a bit like the speeding courses -- the assumption is that people who abuse A&E don't actually know that what they're doing isn't 'normal').  They could also demand ID and charge people if they weren't entitled to use the service (and chase up the charges properly).

For GPs they could have a system of 'escalating hassle', where the system was easier/faster to use for people who never used it, and introducing delays etc for those who use it more frequently.

Or £20 an appointment, no opt outs.

Which us what the higher performing healthcare systems in more socialist  scandi countries do.

Only an idiot would not recognise free at point if use creates more problems than it fixes.

 

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2 hours ago, spygirl said:

I short, yes.

Theyll have spent one 12h shift rehearsing that.

Nothing to do.

Even if they have a ward full of people on ventis, they'll just shove a couple in to check on the machines before legging it.

It's even worse than that.

With the clapp-a-thon we now do for them, they think they're untouchable gods.

yesterday when I went to do the shopping I stopped off to get fuel (always keeping the tank topped up now) and I witnessed a middle-aged ham-planet women in casual clothes fill up her car (very expensive looking Jag) then go into her car to get her NHS lanyard and put in on before going to pay.

There's no discount and no priority hours or anything for fuel, but she just wanted us all to know that she's important.

Expect to see much much more of this in the coming months/years

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55 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Or £20 an appointment, no opt outs.

Which us what the higher performing healthcare systems in more socialist  scandi countries do.

Only an idiot would not recognise free at point if use creates more problems than it fixes.

 

 

That just wouldn't happen.

You know it wouldn't. All the olds wouldn't have to pay. All the long term sick wouldn't. They're the people I assume currently clogging it up.

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48 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

I'd suggest that reforming the NHS is a waste of time when the media and politicains put it on a pedestal. The NHS is basically our state religion and criticising it is unacceptable.

I agree but only means they won the battle not the war.

My suggestion is a subversion of the clapping.

To get a message out there you bang something wooden to show utter distain contempt and disgust for the managers of the NHS and the organisation as a whole [wooden spoon award] for utter failure to provide adequate protection for their staff [and generally steal the money for their own holiday homes]. Whilst applauding all front line workers from doctors to cleaners and everyone in between for risking their life trying to help others.

Anyone good at getting things to go viral?

If you want to muddy the waters and steal some existing bangers you could go for bang metal rather than wood. Add on: 15 mins of very very loud metal at 8.15 to drive the point home and scare the sheep.

Edited by BWW
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3 hours ago, assetrichcashpoor said:

Are the same people who would have gone to A&E with a heart attack going to ICU with covid19 instead?

IMO it's more that people suffering from hypochondria and loneliness will be staying home.

I've attended an A&E once in my life, had to take someone to Homerton Hospital in the early 2000s. A substantial proportion of attendees had nothing obvious wrong with them. The one that stands out was an old geezer with "terrible stomach pains" who arrived just before us. The triage nurse knew him by name, he was clearly a regular. He sat down and tried to chat with me (his opening gambit was "That's a cheeky sight, isn't it?" as he cheerfully pointed at a young woman lying across some seats with her back to us).

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3 hours ago, sleepwello'nights said:

The triage nurse

Yes but I imagine they carefully select the most nazified ones to do that particular job. They would have had a go at you no matter how serious, especially if you'd been a real nuisance and messed up the place with sudden death.

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39 minutes ago, Thombleached said:

It's even worse than that.

With the clapp-a-thon we now do for them, they think they're untouchable gods.

yesterday when I went to do the shopping I stopped off to get fuel (always keeping the tank topped up now) and I witnessed a middle-aged ham-planet women in casual clothes fill up her car (very expensive looking Jag) then go into her car to get her NHS lanyard and put in on before going to pay.

There's no discount and no priority hours or anything for fuel, but she just wanted us all to know that she's important.

Expect to see much much more of this in the coming months/years

Since the dawn of 'social media' we've seen a bit increase in narcissists, I guess because it has somehow been normalised to self promote and look for adulation.  

Scratch the surface and you'll probably find that a large number of these people have got serious self esteem issues.  

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1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Or £20 an appointment, no opt outs.

Which us what the higher performing healthcare systems in more socialist  scandi countries do.

Only an idiot would not recognise free at point if use creates more problems than it fixes.

 

Well, I left out charging as that was specifically ruled out for my proposed solutions.  But charging would word well enough so long as all were charged (ie, no welfare/pensioner exception).

The point is that there are loads of ways to manage load on the NHS, but they pretty much choose the ways that most disadvantage those who have the 'best behaviour'.  I find this weird.

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1 minute ago, dgul said:

Well, I left out charging as that was specifically ruled out for my proposed solutions.  But charging would word well enough so long as all were charged (ie, no welfare/pensioner exception).

The point is that there are loads of ways to manage load on the NHS, but they pretty much choose the ways that most disadvantage those who have the 'best behaviour'.  I find this weird.

They've shut down the UK economy to manage load for the virus.

I fail to see how a £20 charge would be an issue.

I'd prefer a nhs healthcare, which would allow you to seek out treatment rather than have a gp who fails to provide any service.

All interactions with health service require id-ing the person. Simple postcode, house dob check. Or use of nhs number andor driving license would expedite 60%

 

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