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sarahbell

Making masks

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1 minute ago, sarahbell said:

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100% with bells, knobs, and whistles on

(Except the n95 mask will clog and so become more effective though use, although that is not the intention)

Gloves are just as dangerous in the hands of the general public

I get pissed of with all this masks and gloves stuff - false sense of security that may actually enhance transmission because people will believe they have protection.

 

 

 

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Droplets, aerosols.

These viruses particles are not individual entities flowing about in the breeze on their own they are in solution effectively in their what 10,000's or 100,000's + per droplet / aerosolised particle. So initially any sort of mask will act as a barrier pretty much to the droplets, it is what happens after that which is much more complex in terms of individual viruses or numbers of them getting through the material.  

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11 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

I get pissed of with all this masks and gloves stuff - false sense of security that may actually enhance transmission because people will believe they have protection.

Er, yes, I reckon so.

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Doc Graham should read this. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6768072/

13 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

100% with bells, knobs, and whistles on

(Except the n95 mask will clog and so become more effective though use, although that is not the intention)

Gloves are just as dangerous in the hands of the general public

I get pissed of with all this masks and gloves stuff - false sense of security that may actually enhance transmission because people will believe they have protection.

 

 

 

There is an assumption there that every one acts in the same way. 

I suspect the majority of mask wearers will benefit with a minority not. The overall effect is beneficial to the community as a whole. 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Kurt Barlow said:

Doc Graham should read this. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6768072/

There is an assumption there that every one acts in the same way. 

I suspect the majority of mask wearers will benefit with a minority not. The overall effect is beneficial to the community as a whole. 

 

It's beneficial against spreading when your are infected, I'd agree 100%. The mask will stop droplets and will clog further trapping viruses.

But these infected people should be indoors isolating

When you are asymptomatic the mask probably doesn't do much as you are not coughing out aerosols, and so then, won't most transmission be via physical contact?

If you are uninfected the mask (and gloves) probably give most people a false sense of security so they lapse in key areas where might otherwise consider to take precautions, or might even be more dangerous to others because of the 'I'm all right jack' attitude.

I'm a long-term users of masks and gloves in a molecular laboratory but I wouldn't trust myself outside - even i switch in how I 'operate' between environments.

 

Edited by Hopeful

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14 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

It's beneficial against spreading when your are infected, I'd agree 100%. The mask will stop droplets and will clog further trapping viruses.

But these infected people should be indoors isolating

When you are asymptomatic the mask probably doesn't do much as you are not coughing out aerosols, and so then, won't most transmission be via physical contact?

If you are uninfected the mask (and gloves) probably give most people a false sense of security so they lapse in key areas where might otherwise consider to take precautions, or might even be more dangerous to others because of the 'I'm all right jack' attitude.

I'm a long-term users of masks and gloves in a molecular laboratory but I wouldn't trust myself outside - even i switch in how I 'operate' between environments.

 

You make a strong case but I do disagree with the bit in bold and really I think this if why mask wearing is beneficial to everyone if everyone wore.  

People with no illness are always clearing their throat, maybe dry cough here or there, worse sneezing if allergic to something.... Or simply just breathing to ask extent.  The wearer of mask will massively reducing the field that their expectorants (I mean particles think that is right) travel to. 

Iirc if someone coughs the particle has much more chance of drying out mid air, defying gravity due to decreased weight through lack of moisture, and going airborne/ aerosolized. A bit of A4 paper worn by 100% of the population wouldn't be filtering much but think would massively reduce transmission.

And also there is possibility of viral load coming into the equation too.

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24 minutes ago, Dogtania said:

You make a strong case but I do disagree with the bit in bold and really I think this if why mask wearing is beneficial to everyone if everyone wore.  

People with no illness are always clearing their throat, maybe dry cough here or there, worse sneezing if allergic to something.... Or simply just breathing to ask extent.  The wearer of mask will massively reducing the field that their expectorants (I mean particles think that is right) travel to. 

Iirc if someone coughs the particle has much more chance of drying out mid air, defying gravity due to decreased weight through lack of moisture, and going airborne/ aerosolized. A bit of A4 paper worn by 100% of the population wouldn't be filtering much but think would massively reduce transmission.

And also there is possibility of viral load coming into the equation too.

Shouting and excessive laughing are probably as bad as coughing imo. 

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1 hour ago, sarahbell said:

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Nonsense - Doc Graham should stick to surgery.  N95s (and better) have a "U" shaped efficiency curve, with the bottom of the "U" somewhere around 100nm.  Particles smaller than this minimum point are actually filtered more efficiently!  Unfortunately, coronaviruses are around this 100nm size, but even then the efficiency is better than 95% (for N95).

Don't let this surgeon "teach you about MASKS" - read something written by actual experts:

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/409903O/respiratory-protection-against-biohazards.pdf

 

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1 hour ago, Dogtania said:

You make a strong case but I do disagree with the bit in bold and really I think this if why mask wearing is beneficial to everyone if everyone wore.  

People with no illness are always clearing their throat, maybe dry cough here or there, worse sneezing if allergic to something.... Or simply just breathing to ask extent.  The wearer of mask will massively reducing the field that their expectorants (I mean particles think that is right) travel to. 

 

Goes a long way beyond that - just talking you'd be surprised what comes out of the average gob.

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56 minutes ago, onlyme said:

Goes a long way beyond that - just talking you'd be surprised what comes out of the average gob.

And you probably heard it here first?o.O

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3 hours ago, Dogtania said:

You make a strong case but I do disagree with the bit in bold and really I think this if why mask wearing is beneficial to everyone if everyone wore.  

People with no illness are always clearing their throat, maybe dry cough here or there, worse sneezing if allergic to something.... Or simply just breathing to ask extent.  The wearer of mask will massively reducing the field that their expectorants (I mean particles think that is right) travel to. 

Iirc if someone coughs the particle has much more chance of drying out mid air, defying gravity due to decreased weight through lack of moisture, and going airborne/ aerosolized. A bit of A4 paper worn by 100% of the population wouldn't be filtering much but think would massively reduce transmission.

And also there is possibility of viral load coming into the equation too.

 

The problem is we will be wearing masks forever, at least for the forseeable future.

I just made my first trip to the supermarket since the outbreak. Two people came out wearing masks into the carpark, both grabbed their masks with their hand and took it off and stuffed it in their pocket, no doubt gald to breathe freely again. Then one put their hands back on the rolley bar and continued to push the trolley back to their car. Lovely jubbly.

If asks become 'usual', I suspect that even if Covid goes away we will go Chinese/Japanese just for common colds because some vocal people will demand it - not a future I embrace,

 

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56 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

The problem is we will be wearing masks forever, at least for the forseeable future.

I just made my first trip to the supermarket since the outbreak. Two people came out wearing masks into the carpark, both grabbed their masks with their hand and took it off and stuffed it in their pocket, no doubt gald to breathe freely again. Then one put their hands back on the rolley bar and continued to push the trolley back to their car. Lovely jubbly.

If asks become 'usual', I suspect that even if Covid goes away we will go Chinese/Japanese just for common colds because some vocal people will demand it - not a future I embrace,

 

Good point, and I've sometimes imagined this scenerio too. Not sure I exactly embrace this kind of future either but can see it coming if we get covid re runs.  Possibly we'll turn the most militant too virtue signalling and lambasting those who don't.

I look at Japan and see when someone gets a cold they wear a mask to protect others.  To me it looks strange but in a city that is so dense with crowds in close quarters maybe it does benefit everyone.  

I don't want to go down the bubble boy route either and I think a lot of problems may have come (possibly allergies etc) from over zealous parents disinfecting everything in sight.  A bit of germs is a good thing, at least we need a healthy spectrum of a microbiome (although I believe the science is very much not even scratched the surface here). 

Unfortunately recent events seem to have pushed us back and the Dettol warriors are winning out (I'm also guilty using hand sanitizer a lot).  Then there is the likelihood of further outbreaks be it lab grown or natural due to density of populations, animal markets, international travel or previously secluded habitats being opened up and exploited.  Sorry not sounding very hopeful just sounding out loud as usual.  

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Dogtania said:

Good point, and I've sometimes imagined this scenerio too. Not sure I exactly embrace this kind of future either but can see it coming if we get covid re runs.  Possibly we'll turn the most militant too virtue signalling and lambasting those who don't.

I look at Japan and see when someone gets a cold they wear a mask to protect others.  To me it looks strange but in a city that is so dense with crowds in close quarters maybe it does benefit everyone.  

I don't want to go down the bubble boy route either and I think a lot of problems may have come (possibly allergies etc) from over zealous parents disinfecting everything in sight.  A bit of germs is a good thing, at least we need a healthy spectrum of a microbiome (although I believe the science is very much not even scratched the surface here). 

Unfortunately recent events seem to have pushed us back and the Dettol warriors are winning out (I'm also guilty using hand sanitizer a lot).  Then there is the likelihood of further outbreaks be it lab grown or natural due to density of populations, animal markets, international travel or previously secluded habitats being opened up and exploited.  Sorry not sounding very hopeful just sounding out loud as usual.  

 

I think you have just said what I've been saying :)

An indvidual masks up when they are infectious to protect others. There is little gain from the uninfected masking up.

So, everyone doesn't mask up.

A covid19 +ve person could mask up, but surely they should be indoors ?

Yes, Covid19 can be asymtomatic, but when asymptomatic the individual is less likely to be transmitting, I'd have thought. Otherwise we will all have to mask up all of the time.

But then you will have people that will take their dirty mask off and wipe their contaminated hands all over the trolley bar.

 

Edited by Hopeful

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18 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

I think you have just said what I've been saying :)

An indvidual masks up when they are infectious to protect others. There is little gain from the uninfected masking up.

So, everyone doesn't mask up.

A covid19 +ve person could mask up, but surely they should be indoors ?

Yes, Covid19 can be asymtomatic, but when asymptomatic the individual is less likely to be transmitting, I'd have thought. Otherwise we will all have to mask up all of the time.

But then you will have people that will take their dirty mask off and wipe their contaminated hands all over the trolley bar.

 

Seem to be two main mechanisms - airway born and enteric sufferers. Agree of the asymptomatic / lung / airway spread - you'd think the two were very much aligned, no cough / sore throat virus spread that way surely has to be lower. If enter however - symptoms stomach pains, aches and whatever else, main transmission via faces / hands / contact maybe, virus may not be in th airways much / at all so mask pretty much irrelevant in that case.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know why we are not retooling the economy to make masks. They've had 2 whole months to do this. Sure we have companies making gowns and face shields - but not masks! Even if there was a vaccine, people will still wear them because of the coronophobia phenomenon, which will exist long after the disease - see the SARS post efffect.

Dyson and Tesla went out and made ventilators, they are not needed. But they could make masks.

They would sell EVERY MASK they make for the next five years, minimum.

I guess masks aren't sexy or complex like ventilators.

I thought masks would be readily available in shops - but still there are none. I made a quick list of mask manufacturers - I could only find 5 listed companies. I bet there are more factories for cigarettes than for masks.

Edited by 201p

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Posted (edited)

So the government have instructions on how to make a mask. This is the biggest signal to the free market - demand outstrips supply! Get to it!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering

The biggest clue - you need a needle and thread. How many people know how to sew?!!!!!

This makes me smirk "Sewing machine optional" How many people have sewing machines these days - it's all wear once Primark/Boohoo stuff!

Edited by 201p

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41 minutes ago, 201p said:

So the government have instructions on how to make a mask. This is the biggest signal to the free market - demand outstrips supply! Get to it!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering/how-to-wear-and-make-a-cloth-face-covering

The biggest clue - you need a needle and thread. How many people know how to sew?!!!!!

This makes me smirk "Sewing machine optional" How many people have sewing machines these days - it's all wear once Primark/Boohoo stuff!

Mrs. E can make them but the online portals are united in not allowing you to sell them.

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Just now, eight said:

Mrs. E can make them but the online portals are united in not allowing you to sell them.

I wonder if someone wants to monopolise the market? 

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