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Dave Bloke

Python

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Python is the new Basic.

That said, the mathematics libraries are excellent in it -- in that respect it is the 'new Fortran'.

Also, it demands that lines start with the 'right' number of tabs/spaces.  A bit like Fortran.

Edited by dgul

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48 minutes ago, Dave Bloke said:

wtf is this crap? It seems to be the new Fortran, ideal for Academics to write unreadable software

Most popular language for cloud, embedded and desktop at the moment I think.

It is interesting if you want to play with things and try things out quickly - can even do FPGA with it these days

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1 hour ago, Dave Bloke said:

wtf is this crap? It seems to be the new Fortran, ideal for Academics to write unreadable software

Its horrid, although I have used it for a couple of "homer" projects because its got a good platform for gui aps on windows.

Its was case of ...

"how do I initialise an array" - google it

"how to I compare 2 string" - google it

"how do I loop over the array" - er google it

NOTHING in this fucking god awful language seem related to anything else so you just have to google everything all the time.

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2 hours ago, Dave Bloke said:

wtf is this crap? It seems to be the new Fortran, ideal for Academics to write unreadable software

Isn't that any language, where academics are involved?! (Tongue in cheek, people....)

2 hours ago, dgul said:

Python is the new Basic.

That said, the mathematics libraries are excellent in it -- in that respect it is the 'new Fortran'.

Also, it demands that lines start with the 'right' number of tabs/spaces.  A bit like Fortran.

Have used it on and off, never to any great depth, but the impressive thing was, IMO, there was a library for everything, an hey worked.

Just get used to the syntax, like anything else, surely?

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30 minutes ago, gaztastic said:

is the future Dave. sorry bout that.

Its the gaffer tape of languages, brilliant for a quick fix, but noone (sane) is going to be using python for complex systems that involve hundreds of dev man years and have to be maintained for decades. 

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7 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

Its the gaffer tape of languages, brilliant for a quick fix, but noone (sane) is going to be using python for complex systems that involve hundreds of dev man years and have to be maintained for decades. 

No, its OK for that.

Ive a couple of systems that have been deployed. maintained, updated and running for 15 where large parts are in Python.

Its fast enough to handle interactions with humans.

If a system has a lifetime of 5+ years then you get the source for everything - compilers, build tools etc - and keep store them.

My number 1 rule for any work that is going to 'live' longer than 10 years -and software never wears out - is to insist on only using ANSI C or languages built in ANSI C. I accept C99 these days. Having the source to everything else too.

 

A tale of two systems:

In the late 90s, I (just me, on a few months contract) wrote a production test  system that transfer results to an ERP back end.

OS was Debian Linux. Written in C, using ncurses to drive the test.

Over the years I have had to make a couple of updates - new hardware to tests. Slight change in ERP backend data format. The core design is still the same.

In mid 2000s, I was asked to port if to Windows. I refused. Just not worth the ball ache and Im not an employee.

A groups of expensive 'consultants' came in and re-wrote i, based on Windows and C#.

I agreed to carry on maintaining my system. Id already moved the test host machine a few times, moving to CentOS about 10 years agos. Updated the hardware, which was no issue - just install new OS version, put software on. Done.

Jesus.

The transfer to the ERP backend never worked. at least not 100%  I heard this from someone on the production line - the odd transaction was corrupt.

At some point they managed to get the box infected with a virus. The suspicion was it was introduced by one of the c# sharp consultants.

At some point, 3 years in, the .net framework being used was changed, breaking the application.

The Windows system never really worked and was canned after  ~8 years and a few 100k of spend.

My Linux based system is still running.

Discounting the cost over the years and cost saved in production, it was one of the company's best investment. Ever.

 

My point is that if you are investing in custom software then you need to be aware of how long that investment is for.

Most orgs fall into two groups:

Massive spend, then never change. This is why IBM are coining in billions from banks whove deployed some old tech based on MQ (which is very good) and dare not change the tech, so pay IBM to keep providing backwardly compat hardware n software.

Or massive spend every 5-10 years, as they keep chasing a magic bullet. Repeated until they go out of business.

The only sane alternative is to get your design right. Allow for major sub systems to change , get the dependences low and basic and generic i.e. ANSI C library rather than .net 3.0.111118.000.

And *NEVER* buy into 'The next great thing!' until its lasted 10 years.

Oh, and never touch javascript.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

Its the gaffer tape of languages, brilliant for a quick fix, but noone (sane) is going to be using python for complex systems that involve hundreds of dev man years and have to be maintained for decades. 

It's a more modern (and more ported) version of Perl, which was the go to language back in the late 90's early 00's.

 

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12 hours ago, One percent said:

Is that monty?  

I didn't expect that...

From the Python FAQ

Quote

When he began implementing Python, Guido van Rossum was also reading the published scripts from “Monty Python’s Flying Circus”, a BBC comedy series from the 1970s. Van Rossum thought he needed a name that was short, unique, and slightly mysterious, so he decided to call the language Python.

 

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47 minutes ago, eek said:

It's a more modern (and more ported) version of Perl, which was the go to language back in the late 90's early 00's.

 

No its not.

Perl is shit.

There is no connection to Perl, which is abortion/mishmash of the unix command tools

Python has its roots back in the Amoeba project from the Vries Uni.

A large number of the Amoeba team now work for AWS

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12 hours ago, Dave Bloke said:

ideal for Academics to write unreadable software

 

8 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

noone (sane) is going to be using python for complex systems that involve hundreds of dev man years and have to be maintained for decades. 

 

Is impenetrable code written by unstable lunatics such a bad thing?

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5 minutes ago, spygirl said:

No its not.

Perl is shit.

There is no connection to Perl, which is abortion/mishmash of the unix command tools

Python has its roots back in the Amoeba project from the Vries Uni.

A large number of the Amoeba team now work for AWS

 
 
 

Perl was glue to combine a set of commands in usable ways.

A lot of Python code is the same, it's glue to combine products together.

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1 hour ago, spygirl said:

No, its OK for that.

Ive a couple of systems that have been deployed. maintained, updated and running for 15 where large parts are in Python.

Its fast enough to handle interactions with humans.

If a system has a lifetime of 5+ years then you get the source for everything - compilers, build tools etc - and keep store them.

My number 1 rule for any work that is going to 'live' longer than 10 years -and software never wears out - is to insist on only using ANSI C or languages built in ANSI C. I accept C99 these days. Having the source to everything else too.

 

A tale of two systems:

In the late 90s, I (just me, on a few months contract) wrote a production test  system that transfer results to an ERP back end.

OS was Debian Linux. Written in C, using ncurses to drive the test.

Over the years I have had to make a couple of updates - new hardware to tests. Slight change in ERP backend data format. The core design is still the same.

In mid 2000s, I was asked to port if to Windows. I refused. Just not worth the ball ache and Im not an employee.

A groups of expensive 'consultants' came in and re-wrote i, based on Windows and C#.

I agreed to carry on maintaining my system. Id already moved the test host machine a few times, moving to CentOS about 10 years agos. Updated the hardware, which was no issue - just install new OS version, put software on. Done.

Jesus.

The transfer to the ERP backend never worked. at least not 100%  I heard this from someone on the production line - the odd transaction was corrupt.

At some point they managed to get the box infected with a virus. The suspicion was it was introduced by one of the c# sharp consultants.

At some point, 3 years in, the .net framework being used was changed, breaking the application.

The Windows system never really worked and was canned after  ~8 years and a few 100k of spend.

My Linux based system is still running.

Discounting the cost over the years and cost saved in production, it was one of the company's best investment. Ever.

 

My point is that if you are investing in custom software then you need to be aware of how long that investment is for.

Most orgs fall into two groups:

Massive spend, then never change. This is why IBM are coining in billions from banks whove deployed some old tech based on MQ (which is very good) and dare not change the tech, so pay IBM to keep providing backwardly compat hardware n software.

Or massive spend every 5-10 years, as they keep chasing a magic bullet. Repeated until they go out of business.

The only sane alternative is to get your design right. Allow for major sub systems to change , get the dependences low and basic and generic i.e. ANSI C library rather than .net 3.0.111118.000.

And *NEVER* buy into 'The next great thing!' until its lasted 10 years.

Oh, and never touch javascript.

Last year we wrote a new microservice based project using .NET Core 2.2. Microsoft introduced .NET Core 3 and completely broke it. See https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/aspnet/core/migration/22-to-30?view=aspnetcore-3.1&tabs=visual-studio for the simple migration guide. .NET Core 2.2 went out of support at the end of the year.

I like C#, though and it's rapidly changing to make coding easier. I've been doing some Java for an open source project, and find it very verbose and contrived, like some high brow computer science textbook.

And yes, JavaScript is shit.

Edited by mooncat69
Version

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2 minutes ago, MrPin said:

There are quite enough computer languages.

In the time it took to write that comment there probably is another one.

My favourite latest one is Deno, a variation of Node that insists on Typescript but bypasses the Node NPM library which is the reason why node is so popular.

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1 minute ago, eek said:

In the time it took to write that comment there probably is another one.

My favourite latest one is Deno, a variation of Node that insists on Typescript but bypasses the Node NPM library which is the reason why node is so popular.

Reinventing the wheel, I think.

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9 hours ago, goldbug9999 said:

Its the gaffer tape of languages, brilliant for a quick fix, but noone (sane) is going to be using python for complex systems that involve hundreds of dev man years and have to be maintained for decades. 

prepare to be disappointed 

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1 minute ago, eek said:

In the time it took to write that comment there probably is another one.

My favourite latest one is Deno, a variation of Node that insists on Typescript but bypasses the Node NPM library which is the reason why node is so popular.

Don't get me started on npm. We had cloud Jenkins jobs that had to download the internet for every clean build.

What happened to the good old days of a few libraries stored locally and no contrived 'build' before you could run anything?

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3 minutes ago, gaztastic said:

prepare to be disappointed 

I don't really if cool kids and web monkeys working for startups, devops and other pretend programmers love it, thats not the business I'm in.

Languages without concrete data structures never gain traction in the enterprise application space.

Edited by goldbug9999

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