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Green Devil

Sweden the jury returns

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Pretty much straight out accuses them of Eugenics. :D

He has a point.

Sweden do seem to hate a proportion of their population and they are horribly over-represented in the older age group.

 

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7 minutes ago, onlyme said:

Pretty much straight out accuses them of Eugenics. :D

He has a point.

Sweden do seem to hate a proportion of their population and they are horribly over-represented in the older age group.

 

A disproportionate number have been in areas occupied by certain ethnic groups.

Same as the crime, gun use and drugs.

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26 minutes ago, Green Devil said:

Interestingly, the UK has the world's 2nd highest death rate per capita, after Sweden, even with a full lockdown.

Population of Sweden 10.3 million.

Population of UK 67 million (we know about)

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27 minutes ago, Green Devil said:

A damming report from Dr John on the Swedish and US policies. 

Interestingly, the UK has the world's 2nd highest death rate per capita, after Sweden, even with a full lockdown. But I think we can probably put that down to incompetent politicians. 

It aint over til its over.

Part of the high death rate is down to having a health system - lots of poorly, old people kept alive.

Youll not know how good Sweden or UUK or US were versus, say, Germany, until the virus clears andor vaccine is found.

At the mo, I reckon that c19 will cycle round every year killing people. UK annd US have just bitten the bullet earlier.

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7 minutes ago, spygirl said:

It aint over til its over.

Part of the high death rate is down to having a health system - lots of poorly, old people kept alive.

Youll not know how good Sweden or UUK or US were versus, say, Germany, until the virus clears andor vaccine is found.

At the mo, I reckon that c19 will cycle round every year killing people. UK annd US have just bitten the bullet earlier.

There is one line of thought that most deaths are people of the point of death anyway, knocking them off a few months early, the walking (or non-walking dead). First analysis seen of this though the estimate it is bringing that point forward nearly a decade in the cases observed. This could be explained by various other factors - low/ Vit D deficiency and genetics that the virus is also specifically targeting in terms of vulnerability.  It then becomes more than just a question of age /co-morbidites.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, spygirl said:

It aint over til its over.

Part of the high death rate is down to having a health system - lots of poorly, old people kept alive.

Youll not know how good Sweden or UUK or US were versus, say, Germany, until the virus clears andor vaccine is found.

At the mo, I reckon that c19 will cycle round every year killing people. UK annd US have just bitten the bullet earlier.

We've created a covid19 susceptible cohort whom have collectively,  become our jailer. Seemingly, any obese, low Vit D people of adult age. Then add in High blood pressure and diabetes, both conditions of diet and obesity. Then, add in age as all those factors increase with age.

I think Covid19 will kill a lot more in the UK this coming winter if allowed to do so because

1) we may not be able to repeat lockdown and

2) ironically, because it didn't kill that many this last winter, a  level of complacency has developed among the public whom may stick up a middle finger to any future moves to contain spread of something they perceive to have been a non event.

Interestingly, a poor response by the public will contriubute to more deaths and the resulting public reaction will be against the government - what would the government do?, say, "we told you so", they can't really do that as they haven't told us so.

We need much better public information, a viral evolutionary ecology education programme if you will. You can't expect people to follow orders if they don't understand why.

And an urgent programme to improve public health to reduce the number of vulnerable people.

 

Edited by Hopeful

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49 minutes ago, Green Devil said:

Interestingly, the UK has the world's 2nd highest death rate per capita, after Sweden, even with a full lockdown. But I think we can probably put that down to incompetent politicians. 

I think you can put that down to living cheek by jowl and the mass farming of old-folk in concentration camps.

Luxembourg is twice as bad/worse than the UK percentage wise and when I looked at the figures 5% of their population is in old-folks homes and IIRC Belgium was similar.

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It's too early to tell if Sweden got it wrong or not. If it's a sprint they did, if it turns out to be a marathon they might not have. They have more deaths so far compared to their neighbours but people can only die once. It depends how long it goes on and if other countries catch up. All the stats show so far is that like the UK, Sweden are world class at killing people in care homes.

 

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1 minute ago, The Masked Tulip said:

Bleary eyed this morning I read an article headline that said docs are confused why herd immunity does not appear to be developing. I will try and find the article later on.

This one? This virus seems to be re-writing the books, at least as far as it has attracted attention to how these things work more than ever before.

https://www.ibtimes.sg/humans-may-never-develop-immunity-against-covid-19-suggests-us-chinese-joint-study-47055

 

Another study, conducted by researchers at Tsinghua University in Beijing revealed that the more antibodies produced by the patients of novel Coronavirus patients, the worse the outcome – the patient with the strongest antibody response in the study had died.

 

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1 minute ago, onlyme said:

This one? This virus seems to be re-writing the books, at least as far as it has attracted attention to how these things work more than ever before.

https://www.ibtimes.sg/humans-may-never-develop-immunity-against-covid-19-suggests-us-chinese-joint-study-47055

 

Another study, conducted by researchers at Tsinghua University in Beijing revealed that the more antibodies produced by the patients of novel Coronavirus patients, the worse the outcome – the patient with the strongest antibody response in the study had died.

 

 

No, the one below about Sweden. I have not read it yet but I suspect The Telegraph is just saying, a day later, what Dr. John says in the above video. Yep, the same study by the same guy.

Sweden 'surprisingly slow' at achieving herd immunity, study finds

Only 14 per cent of residents in Stockholm have antibodies, well short of the required levels for herd immunity

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/17/sweden-surprisingly-slow-achieving-herd-immunity-study-finds/

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5 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

It's too early to tell if Sweden got it wrong or not. If it's a sprint they did, if it turns out to be a marathon they might not have. They have more deaths so far compared to their neighbours but people can only die once. It depends how long it goes on and if other countries catch up. All the stats show so far is that like the UK, Sweden are world class at killing people in care homes.

 

We will all get to the finish line.

There will be few covid19 vulnerable people by the end,

Except those that choose to join the vulnerable cohort each year by eating too much at Christmas or by either living at the wrong latitude for their genotype or by excluding sunshine by clothing, or those that unfortunately, develop risk factors due to age alone

People that don't migrate,

and uncontacted tribes and the Andaman Islanders should be OK.

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8 minutes ago, onlyme said:

This one? This virus seems to be re-writing the books, at least as far as it has attracted attention to how these things work more than ever before.

https://www.ibtimes.sg/humans-may-never-develop-immunity-against-covid-19-suggests-us-chinese-joint-study-47055

 

Another study, conducted by researchers at Tsinghua University in Beijing revealed that the more antibodies produced by the patients of novel Coronavirus patients, the worse the outcome – the patient with the strongest antibody response in the study had died.

 

So, the virus doesn't kill people, their bodies overreaction to it does?

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8 minutes ago, onlyme said:

This one? This virus seems to be re-writing the books, at least as far as it has attracted attention to how these things work more than ever before.

https://www.ibtimes.sg/humans-may-never-develop-immunity-against-covid-19-suggests-us-chinese-joint-study-47055

 

Another study, conducted by researchers at Tsinghua University in Beijing revealed that the more antibodies produced by the patients of novel Coronavirus patients, the worse the outcome – the patient with the strongest antibody response in the study had died.

 

Really pisses me off when online journalsits don't give links to articles

Here is the first about immunity

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.13.20130252v1.full.pdf

I haven't found the second yet about antibody levels / outcome

If anyone does...

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5 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

 

No, the one below about Sweden. I have not read it yet but I suspect The Telegraph is just saying, a day later, what Dr. John says in the above video. Yep, the same study by the same guy.

 

The one I posted had this interesting bit,  only 4 percent with antibodies, but a quarter expected to have been exposed - now that bit is supposition, but assume must be vaguely right. Means that there is significant natural immunity, the body is able to brush off or ignore the virus without developing antibodies. Repliced elsewhere it might square the circle between how many we suspect may have been exposed and the actual numbers coming out of serology studies.

..........

The Chinese and American scientists found an answer to their quarries on immunity against the novel Coronavirus. The final outcome of their analysis came after they looked into a study on whether hospital workers in Wuhan who were directly exposed to infected patients at the early stage of the outbreak had developed antibodies. Their findings suggested that there may be no immunity against the COVID-19.

The scientists said that at least a quarter of over 23,000 samples tested could have been infected with the virus at some stage but only four percent were found to have developed antibodies as of April. The researchers said in a non-peer-reviewed paper posted on preprint website medRxiv.orgon Tuesday that said, "People are unlikely to produce long-lasting protective antibodies against this virus."

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2 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

That seems to be the case ,the steroid that was cleared for use calms down that reaction apparently

In 20% of cases I think

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, onlyme said:

In many cases yes, cytokine storms, multitude of issues.

For me, so far, the biggest take home message is

Don't be overweight or obese

for all the Covid19 health issues that causes

The biggest precaution against a severe response that most individuals can take.

Edited by Hopeful

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5 minutes ago, onlyme said:

The one I posted had this interesting bit,  only 4 percent with antibodies, but a quarter expected to have been exposed - now that bit is supposition, but assume must be vaguely right. Means that there is significant natural immunity, the body is able to brush off or ignore the virus without developing antibodies. Repliced elsewhere it might square the circle between how many we suspect may have been exposed and the actual numbers coming out of serology studies.

I read something similar ,that suggested 50-80% may not even be to it susceptible to it and could pose very little to no risk of spreading the virus

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