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EU boffins and Chinese Wang in €21 billion hi-voltage atom shocker


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https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01866-9

CERN has taken a major step towards building a 100-kilometre circular super-collider to push the frontier of high-energy physics. Its goal would be to search for new particles or forces of nature and to extend or replace the current standard model of particle physics. Much of the technology that the final machine will require has yet to be developed, and will be the subject of intensive study in coming decades.

Even as an engineering sort of bloke myself I just can't ever deal with this sort of thing at all.  I haven't the faintest idea what the existing CERN collider has produced to justify all the money spent, apart from allowing smug scientists to lord it over their colleagues after having discovered a new (but useless) wazoo atom. Just what is the point of building something like this? As a declared Philistine I am still prepared to take back this statement if one day their discoveries lead to interstellar warp drives or a flying car but from my point of view now this is just one huge scientific scam. With the added frisson of wondering if they will accidentally kill us all by swapping the wrong red and black wires.

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46 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

Even as an engineering sort of bloke myself I just can't ever deal with this sort of thing at all.  I haven't the faintest idea what the existing CERN collider has produced to justify all the money spent, apart from allowing smug scientists to lord it over their colleagues after having discovered a new (but useless) wazoo atom. Just what is the point of building something like this?

As an Engineering bloke myself it completely shocks me how easily and vastly CERN gets funded when everything else on the Power Supply and Infrastructure side is fucked or tightly funded to almost shoddyness. The only reasoning I can come up with, just like saying Nuclear Power would be so cheap it would mean free electricity, is that those backing it want to militarise it.

It is a relic of the cold war, the EU and possibly ambitions of global power for certain parties.

1668213938_Screenshotfrom2020-06-1915-45-41.png.4aee2ea944a70bc82bba1741e8eed629.png

Edited by Chewing Grass
grammar
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Some of these things do have genuine uses..   if you look at Rutherford Appleton Labs in Oxford we have a proton accelerator (neutron source) and an electron accelerator (light source). 

The latter is called diamond light source..  the "light" is used for techniques which allow you to study materials to understand their composition and structure..  complete characterisation.  Pretty useful for medical research and other fields.

Full list of techniques here:

https://www.diamond.ac.uk/Instruments.html

 

CERN does seem to be a bit of a vanity project though..   and we do seem to have reached a point where it is mostly a government dick waving competition and comparing who has the biggest one.

Someone may be able to educate me though   :Passusabeer:

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1 minute ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

No, that was the Internet.

Two separate things (and it was British engineers who developed TCP/IP)

I never knew it was a CERN invention...heard of Tim Berners-Lee 

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5 minutes ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

No, that was the Internet.

Two separate things (and it was British engineers who developed TCP/IP)

vint cerf and bob kahn, both American. You may be thinking of Donald Davies but he didn't invent TCP/IP but came up with the idea of packet switching.

Anyway what can possibly go wrong at CERN?

https://youtu.be/LE0PFhBRMmA

Edited by Dave Bloke
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7 minutes ago, Dave Bloke said:

vint cerf and bob kahn, both American. You may be thinking of Donald Davies but he didn't invent TCP/IP but came up with the idea of packet switching.

Anyway what can possibly go wrong at CERN?

https://youtu.be/LE0PFhBRMmA

I'm sure there were a couple of guys at I think GEC that Cerf and Khan built on, a little like the history of the Miles M52/Bell X1 and Tube Alloys/ManhattanProject. I think have it in a book somewhere, I'll try and find it out, brief online search doesn't find anything.

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Sounds like the Desertron.

In the 90s, they started to build the 87km Superconducting SuperCollider in Texas.

They dug a few bore holes, canned the project, but filmed Universal Soldier down in the tunnel. 

CERN has great PR. Far better than, say, ITER.

they claim many “spin offs”, not just the WWW, but MRI machine superconducting magnets, Grid computing, etc. 

High energy physics has been highly successful in convincing that only they are doing true fundamental research.

See Philip Anderson or David Deutsch for why that’s wrong. 

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46 minutes ago, Libspero said:

Some of these things do have genuine uses..   if you look at Rutherford Appleton Labs in Oxford we have a proton accelerator (neutron source) and an electron accelerator (light source). 

The latter is called diamond light source..  the "light" is used for techniques which allow you to study materials to understand their composition and structure..  complete characterisation.  Pretty useful for medical research and other fields.

Full list of techniques here:

https://www.diamond.ac.uk/Instruments.html

 

CERN does seem to be a bit of a vanity project though..   and we do seem to have reached a point where it is mostly a government dick waving competition and comparing who has the biggest one.

Someone may be able to educate me though   :Passusabeer:

Quite correct, a pivotal moment in human history:

 

 

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I like the Diamond Light Source. At the start bit they have a huge electron gun that they must have stolen from a very big old TV. 

CERN's LHC is something the Merkins don't have, which is a good enough excuse for me.

The new supercollider will discover the Dyson, which is the particle for the fifth fundamental force, suction.

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2 hours ago, Funn3r said:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01866-9

CERN has taken a major step towards building a 100-kilometre circular super-collider to push the frontier of high-energy physics. Its goal would be to search for new particles or forces of nature and to extend or replace the current standard model of particle physics. Much of the technology that the final machine will require has yet to be developed, and will be the subject of intensive study in coming decades.

Even as an engineering sort of bloke myself I just can't ever deal with this sort of thing at all.  I haven't the faintest idea what the existing CERN collider has produced to justify all the money spent, apart from allowing smug scientists to lord it over their colleagues after having discovered a new (but useless) wazoo atom. Just what is the point of building something like this? As a declared Philistine I am still prepared to take back this statement if one day their discoveries lead to interstellar warp drives or a flying car but from my point of view now this is just one huge scientific scam. With the added frisson of wondering if they will accidentally kill us all by swapping the wrong red and black wires.

Many years ago I worked in research.  I won't say the area, but it was useful stuff (still is actually).  Getting funding in 5 figures was difficult, yet CERN gets 11 figure funding.  I've often wondered what is really going on - in all senses.

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3 hours ago, Big Boy said:

CERN gets 11 figure funding.  I've often wondered what is really going on - in all senses.

Maybe the stories about Area 51 yielding alien propulsion technology are true. When it finally becomes public knowledge they can't admit that they had it since whenever it was the 1950s or something, so how do they explain it?

"Turning the Z-volts up to 11 in the CERN spooler has delivered concrete results enabling us to make oil obsolete"

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28 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

Maybe the stories about Area 51 yielding alien propulsion technology are true. When it finally becomes public knowledge they can't admit that they had it since whenever it was the 1950s or something, so how do they explain it?

"Turning the Z-volts up to 11 in the CERN spooler has delivered concrete results enabling us to make oil obsolete"

The opening ceremony of the Gotthard base tunnel was terrifying enough xD

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On 20/06/2020 at 10:17, MrPin said:

I sometimes wonder whether this thing is a financial experiment, rather than a physics one.:S

The LHC is designed to consume and destroy money that QE creates, balancing the universe.

It all started when Victorians placed pennies on tramlines to squash them.

My uncle used to place 10s notes on tramlines. He didn't quite 'get it'.

He did manage to derail and overturn a tram going from Chorlton to Wythenshawe. It squashed his pocket money but he considered it 'worth it'.

 

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