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Critique being asked for. Am I a racist?

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Hi Dosbodders,

A friend of mine has responded to a post of mine on FB saying she finds it upsetting that I frequently make posts that she feels are racist. I'm very fond of her and don't wish to irrevocably alienate her. But I really want to jolt her into accepting that her world-view that embodies structural racism etc etc etc is just a world-view, and not an absolute truth. And I want to respond with what I hope to be a rational account of where I stand. And I've assembled the following text. But when one works on something for a while it can be hard to know whether it has merit - is it well-constructed or a jejune whinge? Is there an omission that completely undercuts the argument? Is it just an inflammatory rant, a deeply insulting piece, or a decent argument? and so on.

I'd really appreciate some comments before I post it. (If I ever do!)

"Hi xxxx, I'm sorry you feel that way, and I have no wish to alienate you. I don't know to what extent you are referring to this particular post, or whether this post triggered a kind of end-of-your-tether moment.

My understanding of this post is that it's a comment on police timidity and cowardice, and how there's a widespread tendency at the moment, not just in the police, to bow to the mob. And how, if you give into the mob, it's never going to be enough, you can never give them enough. I think kneeling is a kind of self-abasement and an unpleasant capitulation to the mob, and the text on the post makes this clear. So I really don't see it as racist, do you?

I suppose my impulse to post the kind of stuff I do is partly a response to the ferocious anti-white, anti-British sentiment, and the absurd biases, that we're saturated in by the media: the hatred of white British culture, the cultural self-loathing as exemplified in much BBC output but widespread elsewhere too. (There's just been an advert for a program "The School that tried to end racism", with a few snippets of white kids being guilt-tripped into shame. Absolutely disgusting stuff - can you imagine any other nations doing this - could you a school in Saudi Arabia guilt-tripping and shaming the kids over their past?) I think that is deeply corrosive and unhealthy for the culture that has nurtured us. I can't see good coming out of that, indeed I would argue that visibly a lot of harm is coming from it.

Anyway, given that this particular post isn't racist, I went back over a few recent posts, looking for what might have upset you. Sometimes, rarely, I make a post and think better of it and delete it or make it private - perhaps it was one of those posts.

Now, I do sometimes post about the sexual abuse of white girls by gangs of predominantly Pakistani heritage men, and there was a post of this sort not too long ago. Perhaps that was a post you think of as racist. But is it? As I see it, I am just commenting on one of the most horrific series of events in recent history, the mass rape of girls by people of mainly Pakistani heritage. And the equally horrific cover-up of these, by the police, local council members, social workers, even MPs (with one or two heroic exceptions). It's estimated even now that there are something like 20,000 per year at risk. I post these things so people don't forget what has gone on and is still going on. Is this thing called white privilege visible here? I'd say it's notable by its absence, in that these multiple agencies of the state conspired to exonerate or hide harmful acts made by PoC's against white girls.

You and I have very different world views. I've never adopted the oppressor-oppressed narrative that you have fully bought into. I regard it as neither true nor helpful, and I think of structural oppression and white privilege as constructs rather than realities.

Let's take another recent example. A couple of days ago a bloke was jailed for 12 days for weeing in public. Gross, but then all the loos are shut because of Covid. Jailed, not for weeing on a memorial, because he wasn't aware it was there. (According to the Met chief, who said "There was no intent"). So, essentially, jailed for weeing in public. A week before that, at a BLM demonstration which is routinely described as "mainly peaceful" by the various propaganda arms that have referred to it, 47 policemen were injured and there was footage of the police being pursued by a mob throwing bottles and besieging Downing Street. A more serious thing to do than wee in public? I would have thought so. Anyone being held to account over this anti-police violence? Not yet as far as I know (though that may change). So where is white privilege in all this - the jailed chap doesn't seem to have much. What we have is anti-white prejudice being made manifest by the court's speedy jailing of him. So you see, what I see around me is often at variance with the "ubiquitous white privilege" world view.

If white privilege is supposed to be a system in which white people are systematically buoyed up by their privilege, and PoC's are systematically pushed down, then in a country where white working class boys fail badly at school and black millionaire footballers are over-represented in professional football, in a world where there can be a black President of the US for 8 years with multi-millionaire American footballers taking the knee, while at the same time there are homeless white drug addicts. In that world, if there is a system for buoying up whites and pushing down blacks, well, it is either very ineffectual indeed, or it's non-existent.

I believe there was a seminal paper that "established" white privilege, in which various questions were posed [from memory] "I can choose to live in a housing environment which is relatively safe", "I can choose to live among people who are…".  That kind of thing. And from this the notion of white privilege emerged. I know this has been criticised for failing to distinguish between the alleged white privilege and other factors in peoples' lives - income, class etc. And then of course there are individual personal challenges like physical attributes and personality etc which affect life outcomes. (I always find it ironic when the latest black millionaire entertainer steps forward to explain how it's completely impossible for people like him to thrive in the UK because of how racist it is).

So why do we hammer on about just that one thing, colour, as though that is THE MAIN, indeed pretty much the ONLY, determinant of success?  Don't these other factors in reality dwarf race?

Here is a panel discussion featuring Ben Shapiro. I'm not a great fan of everything he says or of his showman ways, but I think it's instructive. (He's the only white person I will mention). In this exchange it is the response of his interlocutors that I found instructive: he challenges them to point out where white privilege is. They're determined that it's all around, yet can't seem to put their finger on what it is. And Shapiro quotes various relevant statistics [things like the (low) percentage of Africa Americans who complete high school, the percentage of African American children in single-parent families (lower now than it was 60 years ago)] and they can't respond. What is instructive about this inability to respond is that it's because they've never HAD TO think about these things. Because for them it's ALL ABOUT systemic racism etc, so they've been spared the discomfort of having to even consider other factors.

(These videos tend to have smug titles, but they can still be instructive).

Ben Shapiro SMACKS DOWN Black Lives Matter: "It has nothing to do with race."

I remember seeing a round table meeting with the President and a group of black businessmen, and they were all immensely positive, discussing opportunity zones and access to financing and so on. Hungry for creating and building and improving businesses, not for burning them down or looting them. And they weren't weighed down by the belief that they just couldn't make it because they were black.  They were just getting on with it, eager to make the difference they knew they could. THAT is the kind of attitude I admire and warm to. More constructive human beings, I'd say, more positive people, than, say the people who have recently taken over the centre of Seattle or burned and looted large areas of Minneapolis and elsewhere.


Okay, if you're still with me: why do I take an interest in all this stuff? Because it's ultimately about the truth, about reality, about adopting a model of the world that fits well and can be useful, rather than a model of the world that doesn't fit the world, but instead is a vehicle for a culture of victimhood, or revenge or grievance-mongering. I don't think falsehoods will set you free, and I mean the falsehoods of white privilege and systemic this and that. And also, the situation is so dire in the world that I feel compelled to speak about it.

My problem with the pleading that African Americans are somehow led to, or even compelled to, behave in certain ways because of white privilege or supposed structural racism seems to me to be very infantilising of them, it denies their agency - isn't it a modern version of the white man's burden? So for example, George Floyd was a violent frequently-jailed criminal, and he had 5 children with various women. [Of course, I'm not saying he deserved to die. He shouldn't have died. I shouldn't have to say that.] Have we got to say that these choices that he made his were compelled by his environment, or because his great great great great grandfather was a slave, while others in a similar position to him, who made different choices, manage to rise to become successful sportsmen or entertainers or entrepreneurs or politicians (even Presidents)? Coleman Hughes cites a study that shows outcomes for second generation immigrants from the West Indies into a US town - I forget which one - are far better than African Americans living in the same town in similar circumstances, even though the 2 populations are visually indistinguishable. He offers this as a kind of experiment where you would expect this enormous elephant in the room - systemic racism - to affect both populations equally, but it doesn't. Perhaps the real elephant in the room is culture: perhaps having a sub-culture featuring songs about killing the police and having no respect for ho's etc is not conducive to the making of constructive citizens.

You might think how dare DocH think this - he doesn't have the black experience. No, and neither do you. But of course, there are plenty of blacks who don't hold to this structural racism view, like Coleman Hughes, Thomas Sowell, Larry Elder, entertainers like Kanye West and Zuby. People who are not part of the race-grifter industry so ably gamed by the likes of Al Sharpton or Cornel West. Who don't want special treatment like affirmative action as a permanent arrangement. Here is a compilation of a few of such people:


And in fact Larry Elder has just completed a film "Uncle Tom" which explores this whole area. The trailer for it is here:

Uncle Tom - Official Trailer

I don't have a problem with people supporting BLM if they're motivated by the ideals of equal opportunity, but BLM have a much more radical agenda: ultra-left, anti capitalist, anti patriarchy, anti-police, anti-family, and it seems to be fundamentally a black supremacist body. BLM is an extremely wealthy organization now, one that's given hundreds of millions of dollars to Biden's and to Bernie Sanders' campaigns. And I could not kneel to them, to self-abase before the anti-white sentiment.

The focus of BLM is very much the Western experience. I'm curious: is there a kind of BLM movement in the Islamic world? After all, the Islamic world colonised and dominated many countries, and extracted more slaves from Africa than did the trans-Atlantic slave trade, so shouldn't there be such a thing as Arab privilege over blacks in the middle east? Do Saudi Muslims self-flagellate over the evils of their colonial forefathers and the inter-generational trauma of black residents of the Islamic world? If not, why not? Would you support such a movement? If not, why not?

Surely the Islamic colonisation project must have had a power relationship of Arab over Blacks built into it? If not, how come? The fact that there isn't this kind of discourse in the Islamic world [I'm making an assumption here - and it's possible I'm wrong] … reinforces my suspicion that it's a construct created by a Western race-grifting industry, adept at guilt-tripping the whites.

Ok, so I'm getting a bit caustic out of exasperation. Especially at the moment with destruction looting etc that has started to infect the UK.

I think that'll do.

So, I don't think I'm racist although of course definitions change. You've known me for a while - do you really think I am eaten up with some kind of irrational hatred for PoC's? Do you think I'm that kind of person? But neither am I someone who wants to say "There, there, it's all whitey's fault." My attitude emerges partly in response to 1) The antiwhite propaganda that we're saturated by, which contrasts with my feeling of gratitude to the culture I find myself in. 2) My awareness that society is fragile, and I don't want to abolish our history, or the police (one of BLM's aims) in the absurdly naïve belief that it'll spontaneously transform into a better society (how's that working out in the CHAZ in Seattle?) and  3) It's stupid to lie - falsehoods will not set you free - for example if you focus on police on black violence but completely ignore black on black killing which afflicts tens or hundreds of times more people, then there is clearly an element of distraction going on there, and it's not going to have a particularly beneficial result. It's a recipe for going round in counter-productive circles.

I hope you can bring yourself to think of me not as a wicked person, but rather, from your viewpoint, a deeply misguided one. Which is, of course, rather how I think of you.

You've said you're not going to post of FB. Fine. By all means private message me if you wish.

M x

Footnote: we don't yet know what the George Floyd killing was about. They knew each other from working as security guards in a local club so it may well have been personal rather than race-based. We know he had drugs in his system and a heart condition, and apparently the autopsy suggested these were the reasons for his dying. So every element of the "White cop murders black guy in racist killing" may be false. But it's been a catalyst for a worldwide explosion of protesting, rioting, burning and looting. Even though the premise may be completely false. And even though the video footage of the police's cameras has not been released. Extraordinary!


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Now that you have got it off your chest by writing it all out @DocH I would bin it. It is too long to get your point across to someone who, most likely, will just skim over it even if she reads i

Has she got big tits?

It’s a bit like using rationality to explain to an Inquisitor that there’s no such thing as witches. It has zero chance of working, and will probably end up with you being burned at the stake.

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Honestly,  it reads pretty well.

It requires a certain amount of open mindedness though..  if she is reasonable she may work it through and come back with a similar opposing response to your own..   if so you have a dialogue,  and you will probably both arrive at a position where you have the same view seen from different sides of the fence.  That is how these things usually end.

If not she'll just ignore it all and move on to the cat pictures.

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14 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said:

You’re wasting your time, she’s brainwashed. 


Bin facebook now....

I should do the same with twatter but I found it a source of entertainment.....I never comment though as i realise tis a complete waste of time.....talking of which I should be doing something else xD

OK quick little interesting story.....in France they have 2 sayings for good luck

Bon chance, is just yeah whatever 'good luck', whatever will be will be..... BUT

Bon courage is 'good luck' with a 'you're in control of your destiny' meaning attached to it!

So to the OP and everyone else reading for that matter :)


Edited by 5min OCD speculator
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As others have said, she won't get past the first sentence.

Beyond that -- your post is okay as a 'somewhat logical progression'.  But, that tends not to be an effective strategy for 'influencing people'.  You should follow techniques used by marketing folk, politicians, media influencers, etc.

  • As a general rule, make your 'final point' first -- but it has to be something acceptable to the reader.  This is your only chance to influence them enough to read to the end.   The first sentence is pivotal.

Sadly, your first point is far too aggressive and your actual final point is 'pointless' ('I won't have influenced you') -- you should go with 'what you want to achieve'.  In your case you've probably said something towards the end that is your point:


I don't think I'm racist although of course definitions change*. You've known me for a while - do you really think I am eaten up with some kind of irrational hatred for PoC's? Do you think I'm that kind of person? But neither am I someone who wants to say "There, there, it's all whitey's fault."

I'd suggest that that'll do (well, maybe add 'of course I do want a world free of racism, but I also believe that the current protests are completely missing the point and I actually believe that it'll only fuel racism', which I think is a complete summary of your position), but you could then try to build an argument.  But beware of the Overton window -- you can only present so much that's in opposition to what people have been told to think -- so choose one argument from your diatribe and stick with that alone.  Wait for a neutral (you won't get positive) response before saying any more (to build the argument)

Oh, and never link to others before you've got an open mind listening -- they'll just be other racists that will have been the ones to have 'turned you into a monster'.

[* I've deleted this bit because it doesn't add to your argument.  Don't add stuff that doesn't help because it makes the reader more likely to give up.]

[All that said, you're better off just not saying anything]

Edited by dgul
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An explanation that long sounds like you're in denial or something. Makes you look guilty. And no I didn't read it once I realized how long it was.

As someone else said, you've gotten it off your chest, now forget about it.

Most people have ego investments in their views and you won't change them. Move on.

Edited by JoeDavola
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Dont even bother, why even bother trying to claim you aren't racist?

If you are white or support anything that supports White people or allows them to be seen in a positive manner, you are a racist, that's what racism is.

Just get over it an stop pandering

If you really have to respond then a sentence about child mortality in the 1800s early 1900s, child slaves e.g. oliver twist, soldiers used as cannon fodder in endless european wars, ask what happened when white people left zimbabwae, haiti, detroit, etc etc and then ignore her 

Edited by AQUAMAN
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