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Government being sued for infecting care homes


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This was the most shocking aspect of the pandemic with the NHS dumping infected patients into cae homes all the way up to April 15.

Care homes being both the very places that contain the most vulnerable people so likely to die from CV19 and also easy to block isolate.

Where were the "experts" then; or were they pleased to see the Pandemic gather pace as it put them centre stage?

Quote

In another development, a Devon councillor is taking legal action against the Government over the death of her father in a care home in Oxfordshire. Dr Cathy Gardner, from Sidmouth, said her 88-year-old father died from coronavirus after she believes it was brought into the home by a patient transferred from hospital.

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More than 100 patients were transferred from hospital to care homes in Plymouth without being tested for COVID-19 in the early stages of the pandemic.

Figures from University Hospitals Plymouth NHS Trust (UHP) show of the 165 patients discharged to care homes between March 1 and April 15, 36 were tested for Covid-19 while in hospital, with 12 positive results.

The figures obtained under a Freedom of Information request show the remaining 129 patients were transferred without being tested.

That was in line with national policy at the time which told hospitals to free up beds to cope with an expected surge in coronavirus patients.

It did not require a test for patients being discharged to care homes, although testing was carried out in some cases.

The national policy changed on April 15 to require routine testing for patients transferred to care homes whether they had symptoms or not.

 

 

The very policy that was designed to free up beds for CV patients was directly creating just those patients.

Brilliant ¬¬

 

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/over-100-hospital-patients-plymouth-4275491

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These people are not up to running a corner shop. If you wanted to create the maximum amount of death, economic disaster and fear possible, would you do anything different to what the so-called govern

Unfortunately, I don't think Boris or any of the ministers, or anyone in local Government are sufficiently mentally equipped to deal with a biological event. I dont see conspiracy. I don't even s

This was the most shocking aspect of the pandemic with the NHS dumping infected patients into cae homes all the way up to April 15. Care homes being both the very places that contain the most vul

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8 minutes ago, Stunley Andwin said:

These people are not up to running a corner shop. If you wanted to create the maximum amount of death, economic disaster and fear possible, would you do anything different to what the so-called government did?

Unless that was the plan, in which case they're very good at it.

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9 minutes ago, Stunley Andwin said:

These people are not up to running a corner shop. If you wanted to create the maximum amount of death, economic disaster and fear possible, would you do anything different to what the so-called government did?

they didn't want to create the maximum amout of death, economic disaster and fear possible,

They just didn't know how not to do so

and they still don't as they are still learning

It's unfortunate we have people in charge that are learning while on the job

Edited by Hopeful
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There is massive case against all the pols for malfeasance in a public office, especially once the lockdown is ruled illegal. 

4 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

they didn't want to create the maximum amout of death, economic disaster and fear possible,

They just didn't know how not to do so

and they still don't as they are still learning

It's unfortunate we have people in charge that are learning while on the job

I agree it was on purpose, it is because they had no idea what to do

In reality they never should have locked down, just tried to manage the NHS from being overloaded

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23 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

they didn't want to create the maximum amout of death, economic disaster and fear possible,

They just didn't know how not to do so

and they still don't as they are still learning

It's unfortunate we have people in charge that are learning while on the job

everyone learns on the job.

anyone that says they know everything is lying

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32 minutes ago, Stunley Andwin said:

These people are not up to running a corner shop. If you wanted to create the maximum amount of death, economic disaster and fear possible, would you do anything different to what the so-called government did?

 

You have to look at who is being sued and who is responsible and what the consequences would have been if the actions taken had not been.

What was the correct thing to do? Was it more sensible to leave elderly people in hospital beds?
When did they get infected? Can that be proved? Were they infected prior to hospital admission, during, or after? 
 

If young people had needed the hospital staff and beds taken up by the elderly, then who would be getting sued then?

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4 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

 

You have to look at who is being sued and who is responsible and what the consequences would have been if the actions taken had not been.

What was the correct thing to do? Was it more sensible to leave elderly people in hospital beds?
When did they get infected? Can that be proved? Were they infected prior to hospital admission, during, or after? 
 

If young people had needed the hospital staff and beds taken up by the elderly, then who would be getting sued then?

But that was never going to happen, this is like the flu we have had flu seasons with 80K deaths and never locked down.

What has happened is we have lost our collective minds and thrown our economy and freedoms away for it. The problem is the media are hysterical and the politicians are all over promoted yes men who have only ever worked in the westminster bubble and have never had real jobs. Couple that with dodgy models from academics and we are in a right mess, though at least we can start questioning climate change models now. 

The sad reality is a combination of the poor politicians over the last 20 years, media hype and globalization led to this, globalization as all politicians and media world wide have been the same. 

We need to open up and get on with it, we cannot hide in the shadows it is not liviing it is existing. Those that need to shelter should and those that are scared should also. 

The latest lock down in Leicester shows they are still panicking and scared, they are going to be even more once the people realize what these fuckers have done in destroying the economy. 

 

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4 minutes ago, ad_ceng said:

But that was never going to happen, this is like the flu we have had flu seasons with 80K deaths and never locked down.

What has happened is we have lost our collective minds and thrown our economy and freedoms away for it. The problem is the media are hysterical and the politicians are all over promoted yes men who have only ever worked in the westminster bubble and have never had real jobs. Couple that with dodgy models from academics and we are in a right mess, though at least we can start questioning climate change models now. 

The sad reality is a combination of the poor politicians over the last 20 years, media hype and globalization led to this, globalization as all politicians and media world wide have been the same. 

We need to open up and get on with it, we cannot hide in the shadows it is not liviing it is existing. Those that need to shelter should and those that are scared should also. 

The latest lock down in Leicester shows they are still panicking and scared, they are going to be even more once the people realize what these fuckers have done in destroying the economy. 

 


Lovely picture on twitter of last week in Leicester. They'd forgotten about lockdown

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12 minutes ago, wherebee said:

everyone learns on the job.

anyone that says they know everything is lying

Everyone learns all the time throughout life

But thos in Government are starting out from zero.

I don't know the numbers now, but in Cameron's Govt I think there were ~650 MPS of which only ~16 had any science education beyond an 'A' level

Matt Hancock has a BA in PPE from Oxford.

A BA in PPE, FFS

He is the Health Secretary, FFS

He is learning from a base that I think is unacceptable.

I doubt he will have the knowledge to know if advice is reasonable nor will he have knowledge to ask appropriate questions of the advisors.

The problem is that Boris and any PM only has the numpties to call upon that we elect or that we are offered to elect.

Would you have someone with a degree in Media Studies as the minister for Defence at a time of war ?

 

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3 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

Matt Hancock has a BA in PPE from Oxford.

A BA in PPE, FFS

He is the Health Secretary, FFS

 

 

Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) at Oxford University has traditionally been a degree read by those seeking a career in politics, public life (including senior positions in Her Majesty's Civil Service) and journalism.

 

What would you like a minister to have a degree in?

A good degree should be (and used to be) a measure of your general level of intelligence and ability to be a useful human.

I suspect they are now similar to these
1950s Kelloggs Corn Flakes Cereal Box With Space Cadet & Aircraft ...

 

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37 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

 

You have to look at who is being sued and who is responsible and what the consequences would have been if the actions taken had not been.

What was the correct thing to do? Was it more sensible to leave elderly people in hospital beds?
When did they get infected? Can that be proved? Were they infected prior to hospital admission, during, or after? 
 

If young people had needed the hospital staff and beds taken up by the elderly, then who would be getting sued then?

This is the problem with this pandemic

I keep saying it to emphaise the point, but this is a virgin soil epidemic

It will overwhelm the NHS because i) we haven't been exposed to it before and ii) we don't have reserve pandemic capacity for good reasons,

That means if we treat the Covid19 we won't treat the triple heart bypass patient

As you say, who sues who.

It could be arged that lots have people have suffered through denile of NHS services in any case. and that is true. But I firmly belive that lockdown has had a significant effect upon transmission so that hospital admissions didnt materialise. (just look at Texas now). Live and learn @wherebee. So in hindsight we could have carried on normal elective surgery while in lockdown.

@ad_ceng We did need a lockdown for the above reason. What we should have had is just a partial lockdown/social distancing of those that are vulnerable and whom would overwhelm the NHS, rather than a countrywide lockdown. ]

I am very interested to see what will happen this winter.

In a way I wear two hats. I am completely fucked off with how this disease has changed my life, but i'm intrigued to see the societal responses.

Currently, I think it has been handled well in terms of knocking transmission n the head and 'saving the NHS' and protecting the givernments reputation (what it's actually about) but it could have been handled more intelligently and in a less econimically, damaging way.

@ad_ceng It's not flu :)

The alternative would be to let the infection blow though and have all the infections and deaths over and done with in a couple of years. that also would b ecnomically destabilising and no government would get elected again...

 

 

Edited by Hopeful
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11 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

Philosophy, Politics and Economics (PPE) at Oxford University has traditionally been a degree read by those seeking a career in politics, public life (including senior positions in Her Majesty's Civil Service) and journalism.

 

What would you like a minister to have a degree in?

A good degree should be (and used to be) a measure of your general level of intelligence and ability to be a useful human.

I suspect they are now similar to these
1950s Kelloggs Corn Flakes Cereal Box With Space Cadet & Aircraft ...

 

 

I would like him to have at least a first degree in a biological science.

and then he can have a second degree in PPE if he wants, although I think the degree in PPE is unecessary for a health secretary, or anyone for that matter.

Just because a degree in PPE has become to be seen as a gateway to a career in politics (a career FFS, therein lies the problem) doesn't mean it's a necessarily useful qualification, or that we want career politicians

 

Edited by Hopeful
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1 hour ago, Hopeful said:

Unfortunately, I don't think Boris or any of the ministers, or anyone in local Government are sufficiently mentally equipped to deal with a biological event.

I dont see conspiracy. I don't even see cock up. I just see complete lack of awareness.

 

 

replicated in the US, coincidence ? Surely in their pandemic exercises they had a plan on how to empty hospitals.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

The very policy that was designed to free up beds for CV patients was directly creating just those patients.

They did this on a massive scale  in Democrat ruled areas.

I've read 1/2 the US CV deaths were in care homes.

NY and LA had hospital ships they underutilised whilst CV oldies were sent back to care homes.

The law suits in the US will be massive.

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@Hopeful I disagree with lock down, as it is not legal nor moral to put a nation on house arrest and what comes after will be worse I think, look at all the cancer cases. What should have been done is advice to shelter if you want, it is not the governments job to keep you alive. 

Texas might have more cases now the question is deaths and hospitalizations and that looked stable the last time I saw it a few days ago. 

In the UK infections peaked before lockdown, deaths shortly after, flu or not it should have been handled like one. What we have done now is terrify an entire nation, destroy the economy and give politicians new powers. 

Texas is interesting 60 fatalities a day from it, it is in the noise when you consider the size and population of texas

https://tabexternal.dshs.texas.gov/t/THD/views/COVIDExternalQC/COVIDTrends?:isGuestRedirectFromVizportal=y&:embed=y

We have 1400 ish deaths a day in the UK we are staying in lockdown for less than 100 deaths a day from covid, and most of those are guesses that people had it. 

Hell the tests are not even accurate for it, it is total cluster fuck we should forget it re open the world and then hang politicians like hancock 

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8 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Everyone learns all the time throughout life

But thos in Government are starting out from zero.

I don't know the numbers now, but in Cameron's Govt I think there were ~650 MPS of which only ~16 had any science education beyond an 'A' level

 

Would you have someone with a degree in Media Studies as the minister for Defence at a time of war ?

 

Hold on, Ministers have departments with access to expert advisors. You don't really think they make decisions based solely on their assessment of the political implications. They have whole departments who can select many experts and advisors to provide their judgements on different avenues to take.

This is really just a rehash of the age old argument that you shouldn't ask anybody to do something you can't do yourself. A minister is akin to a CEO of a business organisation. His function is not to do the work but to organise and delegate.

No doubt there will be differences of opinions between the experts and advisors, the minister will then present those arguments to the cabinet for further discussion before a decision is made. Who can say without the benefit of hindsight which would be the best option to follow. Even then different courses may both give suitable outcomes, it is not just one course that will give an optimum solution.

In the case of elderly patients being discharged to care homes the decisions would have been taken by many medical professionals in hospitals throughout the country.  Even if the Government had ordered them to discharge all patients over a specified age, which I doubt, I bet many medical professionals would have exercised their discretion and based their decision on medical priorities. 

In hindsight there were infected patients discharged into care homes that should not have been. Was it the governments decision to blame or the medical professionals who should have used their medical knowledge? 

 

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6 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

Hold on, Ministers have departments with access to expert advisors. You don't really think they make decisions based solely on their assessment of the political implications. They have whole departments who can select many experts and advisors to provide their judgements on different avenues to take.

This is really just a rehash of the age old argument that you shouldn't ask anybody to do something you can't do yourself. A minister is akin to a CEO of a business organisation. His function is not to do the work but to organise and delegate.

No doubt there will be differences of opinions between the experts and advisors, the minister will then present those arguments to the cabinet for further discussion before a decision is made. Who can say without the benefit of hindsight which would be the best option to follow. Even then different courses may both give suitable outcomes, it is not just one course that will give an optimum solution.

In the case of elderly patients being discharged to care homes the decisions would have been taken by many medical professionals in hospitals throughout the country.  Even if the Government had ordered them to discharge all patients over a specified age, which I doubt, I bet many medical professionals would have exercised their discretion and based their decision on medical priorities. 

In hindsight there were infected patients discharged into care homes that should not have been. Was it the governments decision to blame or the medical professionals who should have used their medical knowledge? 

 

 

And if there is nobody on the cabinet with the ability to question or discriminate between the advice given but can just stare at their notes and hope nobody asks for their views....

I've mixed quite a bit with MPs and ministers. Their level of understanding is shockingly poor when to comes to anything to do wth science, they often can't even understand the topic or the advice.

 

Edited by Hopeful
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50 minutes ago, ad_ceng said:

But that was never going to happen, this is like the flu we have had flu seasons with 80K deaths and never locked down.

What has happened is we have lost our collective minds and thrown our economy and freedoms away for it. The problem is the media are hysterical and the politicians are all over promoted yes men who have only ever worked in the westminster bubble and have never had real jobs. Couple that with dodgy models from academics and we are in a right mess, though at least we can start questioning climate change models now. 

The sad reality is a combination of the poor politicians over the last 20 years, media hype and globalization led to this, globalization as all politicians and media world wide have been the same. 

We need to open up and get on with it, we cannot hide in the shadows it is not liviing it is existing. Those that need to shelter should and those that are scared should also. 

The latest lock down in Leicester shows they are still panicking and scared, they are going to be even more once the people realize what these fuckers have done in destroying the economy. 

 

Other than a pandemic year?  Do you have a reference for that?

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14 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

And if there is nobody on the cabinet with the ability to question or discriminate between the advice given but can just stare at their notes and hope nobody asks for their views....

I've mixed quite a bit with MPs and ministers. Their level of understanding is shockingly poor when to comes to anything to do wth science, they often can't even understand the topic or the advice.

 

Yes, and add to this that everyone in Government above an admin clerk has an agenda.

I worked in Westminster for two years. A fucking vipers nest.

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