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MAF Training with Low Heart Rate, Low Carb, Intervals, Ketosis, Fasting & more


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snaga

Dr Phil Maffetone is a name I've not heard of on DOSBODS, and only came across it from a youtube recommendation as a training method for endurance running.

For running, it's called Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) which is a rather crude calculation of what you max heart rate should be for optimal aerobic training. 180- age. I'm sure the acronym is a coincidence :)

Maffetone appears to have been on the low carb, fasting, ketosis "bandwagon" since the 70s, he really should be in the DOSBODs hall of fame if we had one :)

I've not been following a strict low carb diet, and certainly not in ketosis, but I do avoid sugar and refined carbs.

What I have been doing is following his MAF training, this week I'll run 100km, I started doing MAF training at the start of June, my pace at my MAF heart rate has gone from 6:40m/km to 6:00m/km. And it's been enjoyable, no injuries, no stress, not tired and ready to go for another run immediately.

long video below, it covers everything in the subject, but MAF training and low carb diet really do seem to be bedfellows. (Talks about MAF training at 42m)

 

 

 

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Carbs are sugar without the sweet taste. at a molecular level, carbs are just long strings of sugar molecules, which on digestion get broken into sugar molecules. Once you understand this, y

I did a half marathon today, did the first 10k slowly then thought fuck it, and went for it for the last 11k. It's only the 2nd time I've put the foot down since June. Smashed my HM PB by 8 minut

I've now done more 12k runs in the last week than in the previous 4 years or so, since I restarted running. Very weird. I always struggled to push myself to do a second lap and overnight it has become

Posted Images

I've been following MAF since June now, seems to be working, here's a graph of all my MAF runs min/mile v Day.

image.png.4a2d343027ed5b511ad946f0d7cc14ae.png

I had a cold and raised resting heart beat for most of September, I'm sure that tempered results, only got back to normal in the past week or so.

There's 3 parts to MAF, training, diet, and stress management. Not really been as strict as I could be on the diet, and not even considered reducing other stresses yet.

I've now bought one of his books, the big yellow book of endurance and racing, I'm enjoying it, just started the chapters on diet. Could never of envisaged me reading such a book before covid19.

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steppensheep
On 07/07/2020 at 19:48, snaga said:

Maximum Aerobic Function (MAF) which is a rather crude calculation of what you max heart rate should be for optimal aerobic training. 180- age....

Just found a new formula for max heart rate: 191.5-.007*age^2

Compared to the more usual: 220-age

 

It's more complicated so it must be better! It actually gives similar results, but about 5 points higher between 50 and 90.

 

I think optimal training zone is then 70% of the difference between your max and min.

That gives me a target of 138bpm compared to the MAF target of 125. I think the figures are interesting for guidance, but I suspect all our bodies are so different there's no point in being too precise.

 

Funnily enough, I started doing slow runs a while back (when? This year, last year, God knows) at 120 to 130bpm doing 7min/km and in my last few runs have gone up to 140bpm for 6min/km.

 

Previously I was doing 5min/km at 150+bpm.

 

Funny thing is, I feel just as physically and mentally good and with the same sense of achievement after a slow run as I used to after a fast run, and without all the sweat.

Edited by steppensheep
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steppensheep

I was going to do keto for December, but bloody lidl was selling 2kg of nice oranges for 1.50 so I'm going to live on oranges until they stop, then have a go at the keto.

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as an update, I've stuck with MAF for 6 months now. This morning's run was an average of 8:28/mile or 5:15/km at 128 bpm heart rate.

6 months ago for the same heart rate I was running ~10:30/mile or ~6:30/km

I've also ran two trail marathons in October, 4h25 and 4h40 which given the muddy conditions I was more than happy with.

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8 hours ago, steppensheep said:

Just found a new formula for max heart rate: 191.5-.007*age^2

Compared to the more usual: 220-age

 

It's more complicated so it must be better! It actually gives similar results, but about 5 points higher between 50 and 90.

 

I think optimal training zone is then 70% of the difference between your max and min.

That gives me a target of 138bpm compared to the MAF target of 125. I think the figures are interesting for guidance, but I suspect all our bodies are so different there's no point in being too precise.

 

Funnily enough, I started doing slow runs a while back (when? This year, last year, God knows) at 120 to 130bpm doing 7min/km and in my last few runs have gone up to 140bpm for 6min/km.

 

Previously I was doing 5min/km at 150+bpm.

 

Funny thing is, I feel just as physically and mentally good and with the same sense of achievement after a slow run as I used to after a fast run, and without all the sweat.

yes, the 180 MAF calculation is the most criticised, Maffetone will say it is not related to max heart rate. 

It's worked for me, see post above, so I'm sticking with it, you need patience, and an understanding that MAF isn't all about the calculation, but about living a healthy life and avoiding injury. The better running is almost a side effect.

 

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Watched a bit of endurance trail running yesterday. 

Bloke won the 100 miler at 8 mins 5 second pace. Off road. 

O.o

As usual with these runners he didn't look healthy. Still an Incredible time though. 

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Libspero
On 01/12/2020 at 23:07, steppensheep said:

I was going to do keto for December, but bloody lidl was selling 2kg of nice oranges for 1.50 so I'm going to live on oranges until they stop, then have a go at the keto.

I started doing the Keto diet at the beginning of November.  Lost about 5-6 kilos so far.   Really liking it..  feel great and really not missing carbs that much.  There seems to be a bit more flexibility than on the original Atkins diet.

Just waiting to see if I suddenly crash out and start to pile on the puddings :ph34r:

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stop_the_craziness
17 hours ago, Libspero said:

I started doing the Keto diet at the beginning of November.  Lost about 5-6 kilos so far.   Really liking it..  feel great and really not missing carbs that much.  There seems to be a bit more flexibility than on the original Atkins diet.

Just waiting to see if I suddenly crash out and start to pile on the puddings :ph34r:

I'd certainly be interested in hearing your updates on this one.  I'm not planning on going full carb-free in 2021 but I think there are some modifications in that direction that I'm interested in exploring.

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nirvana
3 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

I'd certainly be interested in hearing your updates on this one.  I'm not planning on going full carb-free in 2021 but I think there are some modifications in that direction that I'm interested in exploring.

You need carbs to go further on your bike! You gonna stock up on Mars Bars instead? :o

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stop_the_craziness
5 hours ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

You need carbs to go further on your bike! You gonna stock up on Mars Bars instead? :o

:D  One of the "Podium" podcast episodes I was listening to was all about how to teach your body to fat burn rather than letting it rely on carbs, which it will choose if it can.  I made a few changes to my usual ride fuelling methods whilst I was on my cycling trip and lost 3kg over the six weeks which really improved my power-to-weight ratio and my ability to climb.  It was one of the million reasons why I was so gutted to have to come back because I'd really got into a groove with it and could see noticeable improvements.  

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nirvana
9 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

whilst I was on my cycling trip and lost 3kg

ok but I once weighed myself before and after a dump and there was a 2kg difference*.......and I generally weigh less than 10.5 stone so I'm not exactly overweight......I think the trick is not to be fat in the first place xD

which episode is it on podium? did you do Sa Colobra?

*I just did this to amuse my cycling buddies who were arguing over 7kg vs 9kg bikes....

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Hail the Tripod
15 hours ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

You need carbs to go further on your bike! You gonna stock up on Mars Bars instead? :o

What do you think “carbs” are? Mars bars are primarily carbs, not an alternative.

https://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/calories/calorie_counter/chocolate_sweets/mars-bar.htm

4D3D2A2F-985D-42B5-932F-58C85C0C82AD.png

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nirvana
4 hours ago, Hail the Tripod said:

What do you think “carbs” are? Mars bars are primarily carbs, not an alternative.

to be honest not 100% sure what a carb is but I think most folk are the same xD

IE is rice a carb? yes

Does rice contain sugar? hmmm, don't think so (unless it's heavily processed white shite)

from your link

Carbohydrate (g) 69.3
of which Sugars

59.9

 

so I guess there are good carbs and bad carbs??? O.o

PS rice and fruit can cure obesity AND cancer as demonstrated by Dr Kempner :P

Edit: just had a look on the back of a pasta package, 70% carbs with 3% sugar......

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Hail the Tripod
28 minutes ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

Does rice contain sugar? hmmm, don't think so (unless it's heavily processed white shite)

Yes. Tons of it. Rice is primarily starch, which is essentially a daisy chain of sugars. These starch chains are broken down by your digestive processes and enter your bloodstream as sugars.

30 minutes ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

so I guess there are good carbs and bad carbs??

Yeah, but the difference isn’t in the type of carbs so much as how hungry you are when you eat them IMO.

32 minutes ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

PS rice and fruit can cure obesity AND cancer as demonstrated by Dr Kempner 

For all the diet gurus who can cure cancer by “just doing xxxxx”, it’s a wonder so many people still die of it.

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nirvana
7 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

For all the diet gurus who can cure cancer by “just doing xxxxx”, it’s a wonder so many people still die of it.

methinks you underestimate how stupid people are :P

Cancers are nearly always self-inflicted ie through diet/drink/smoking but they don't tell you that on the TV; NHS are worried they'll be out of work and backhanders from the drug behemoths xD

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There have been a few threads on r/zerocarb wrt athletic performance and ZC.

A guy who was active both before and after going zero carb reckoned that for events lasting less than 15 minutes, there was no noticeable difference in performance.

For events lasting 15 to 60 minutes, carb eaters had a slight edge. For events lasting an hour or more, being ZC gave a noticeable advantage.

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nirvana
7 minutes ago, jm51 said:

For events lasting 15 to 60 minutes, carb eaters had a slight edge. For events lasting an hour or more, being ZC gave a noticeable advantage.

WHAT! How about the Tour De France? That's one of the longest lasting sports out there.....any evidence that zero carb makes you a winner??.....ignore Lance Armstrong, he was on some whacky drugs :S

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Hail the Tripod
Just now, 5min OCD speculator said:

hold on how about this for brown rice? For a typical serving size of 1 cup (or 185 g) the amount of Sugar is 1.57 g

source http://www.dietandfitnesstoday.com/sugar-in-brown-rice.php

so that's less than 1% sugar...

How much starch? Did you read what I wrote beyond the word “Yes”?

17 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Rice is primarily starch, which is essentially a daisy chain of sugars. These starch chains are broken down by your digestive processes and enter your bloodstream as sugars.

 

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nirvana
2 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

enter your bloodstream as sugars

yeah good, starch is mainly glucose and we need glucose to survive so therefore we need carbs :P

now, do we need fat? (see other thread lol)

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stop_the_craziness
9 hours ago, 5min OCD speculator said:

ok but I once weighed myself before and after a dump and there was a 2kg difference*.......and I generally weigh less than 10.5 stone so I'm not exactly overweight......I think the trick is not to be fat in the first place xD

which episode is it on podium? did you do Sa Colobra?

*I just did this to amuse my cycling buddies who were arguing over 7kg vs 9kg bikes....

I only compare weights that have the same *ahem* conditions at the point of the weigh in (fuck me I'm really outing myself as a nerd here)

And yes, I did Sa Calobra in 57 minutes, which I was absolutely chuffed with.  So chuffed that I almost couldn't understand how I'd done it so well (for me) until I got home and discovered that I had taken 3kg less up the climb than I thought.

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21 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

:D  One of the "Podium" podcast episodes I was listening to was all about how to teach your body to fat burn rather than letting it rely on carbs, which it will choose if it can.  I made a few changes to my usual ride fuelling methods whilst I was on my cycling trip and lost 3kg over the six weeks which really improved my power-to-weight ratio and my ability to climb.  It was one of the million reasons why I was so gutted to have to come back because I'd really got into a groove with it and could see noticeable improvements.  

which is brings us back on topic, fat burning is what MAF training is all about. I'm running up to 2.5 hours now, fasted, at MAF pace, with no carbs during the run, if I'm planning on running for more than 2.5 hours I'll start taking carbs after the first hour.

As your heart rate goes up, your body needs more carbs for fuel, such that a sprinter will need almost 100% carbs, but an endurance runner can run at a much low heart rate and 70% fat 30% carbs. If your body has 2000 calories in stored glycogen you can run for 2K + 6K  calories before you run out of fuel. That could be 10 hours with no need for extra calories, though they usually take some, why run to empty when you can top up with 200 calories an hour, which is about the rate that your body can absorb calories. Net carb calorie use of zero, in effect they can run until they run out of body fat, which would never happen.

of course it's more than just heart rate, it's much more complicated than that, but heart rate is a good proxy indicator.

Many people are almost 100% dependant on carbs, and crash after a few hours of even very slow running as they quite literally run out of fuel available to them, this when carrying a few 100,000 calories as fat that their engines can't tap in to.

 

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stop_the_craziness

Did a first MAF training session on the turbo today, whilst also listening to a podcast with Dr Phil Maffetone explaining more about it and the nutrition/stress element too.  Extremely interesting stuff.

I'm going to give it a go for the next 12 weeks, which will take me to Mid March, by which time I'll hopefully be back to outdoor riding and see how much it's helped.

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