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Change benefits system to discourage having kids


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36 minutes ago, Shamone said:

It’s fucked up. All I can advise is pay as little tax as possible. Don’t feed the beast. I would rather be piss poor., and am. Rich on time though.

Agreed. By paying your tax you are working to support the current system. Galt's Gulch won't happen for most of us. However, if you are in the position to save tens of thousands of pounds a year, you're also able to reduce your tax bill significantly. It's as easy as contributing to a SIPP. With current interest rates, even having cash sitting in a SIPP earning no interest will beat the returns of savings accounts.

If you pay 40% tax, putting money in a SIPP gets you the same return in ~6 weeks as leaving cash in a top savings account for 50 years. If you pay 20% tax, then the return is only the equivalent of 22 years in a savings account. That's the magic of compound bugger all interest for you!

As a bonus, it means less tax for the government to waste. Stop supporting the wasters and start supporting yourself.

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59 minutes ago, Shamone said:

It’s fucked up. All I can advise is pay as little tax as possible. Don’t feed the beast. I would rather be piss poor., and am. Rich on time though.

Aye well that's why I haven't chased promotions as I'd be sacrificing a lot of time and stress just to give 40% of the extra earnings away.

If I can get a house bought outright I could probably go down to paying 0 tax and putting the rest of my money above the 12K limit into my pension if I wanted to. Not saying I will but it's nice to have the option.

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18 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

Aye well that's why I haven't chased promotions as I'd be sacrificing a lot of time and stress just to give 40% of the extra earnings away.

If I can get a house bought outright I could probably go down to paying 0 tax and putting the rest of my money above the 12K limit into my pension if I wanted to. Not saying I will but it's nice to have the option.

Good thinking. I don’t trust that sipps won’t ever be taxed, though. Also it is my belief that even working more hours than necessary is still feeding the beast. I earn the tax threshold and pay as little other tax as possible. It’s a real red pill moment.

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25 minutes ago, Shamone said:

Good thinking. I don’t trust that sipps won’t ever be taxed, though. Also it is my belief that even working more hours than necessary is still feeding the beast. I earn the tax threshold and pay as little other tax as possible. It’s a real red pill moment.

Completely understand - I get plenty of holidays and 'quiet days' on my current job that it wouldn't be worth going down to a 4 or 3 day week for what I would lose in terms of pay, pension contributions and paid leave, and (at the moment) I quite enjoy my job most of the time, but I can well understand why it would make sense in many jobs to do this if you can.

I guess my own idea of freedom is not having to leave this job for one I would hate for an extra 5 or 10k a year.

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24 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

...

If I can get a house bought outright I could probably go down to paying 0 tax and putting the rest of my money above the 12K limit into my pension if I wanted to. Not saying I will but it's nice to have the option.

Couldn't you do this now? Is your reason for not buying a house:

a) you can't buy the house you'd like in cash and are unwilling to to take on a mortgage?

b) you believe that house prices will fall enough that your current stash will get you the house you want?

c) it's easier not to make a decision?

d) something else?

I'm not saying buying a house now would be a good idea because I believe house prices could drop. However, I've believed this since 2003! I do think that in most of the above cases you do have the opportunity to something with your money other than just leaving it in a bank and watching it lose value in real terms.

17 minutes ago, Shamone said:

I don’t trust that sipps won’t ever be taxed

Neither do I. They are currently taxed when you take the money out. I doubt that they will be taxed to such an extent that you lose more money than you currently recoup just by making a deposit. Do you believe that they will be taxed more heavily than more liquid savings? Similarly do you think that if they are counted against state pension means testing, that ISA/cash savings will not also be counted? My reasoning for putting money into a SIPP is that, if they pull any such stunts, I have 10 years before state pension age to withdraw it and make another plan.

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Didn't mean to pull this thread off topic. My point was that many have the choice not to feed the system. Shamone is also doing this with a different approach.

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Wight Flight
1 hour ago, Shamone said:

It’s fucked up. All I can advise is pay as little tax as possible. Don’t feed the beast. I would rather be piss poor., and am. Rich on time though.

If you have kids that you support yourself you will end up being piss poor and paying a shit load of tax.

Until they are 16, at which point they become quite tax efficient (but sadly also more expensive)

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24 minutes ago, Formerly said:

Couldn't you do this now? Is your reason for not buying a house:

a) you can't buy the house you'd like in cash and are unwilling to to take on a mortgage?

b) you believe that house prices will fall enough that your current stash will get you the house you want?

c) it's easier not to make a decision?

d) something else?

I'm not saying buying a house now would be a good idea because I believe house prices could drop. However, I've believed this since 2003! I do think that in most of the above cases you do have the opportunity to something with your money other than just leaving it in a bank and watching it lose value in real terms.

Neither do I. They are currently taxed when you take the money out. I doubt that they will be taxed to such an extent that you lose more money than you currently recoup just by making a deposit. Do you believe that they will be taxed more heavily than more liquid savings? Similarly do you think that if they are counted against state pension means testing, that ISA/cash savings will not also be counted? My reasoning for putting money into a SIPP is that, if they pull any such stunts, I have 10 years before state pension age to withdraw it and make another plan.

I have no idea how they might be taxed, but they are a bit like sitting ducks. Lord knows if they will ever means test State Pension. I wouldn’t rule it out though.

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19 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

If you have kids that you support yourself you will end up being piss poor and paying a shit load of tax.

Until they are 16, at which point they become quite tax efficient (but sadly also more expensive)

Another reason I chose never to have children.

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Wight Flight
1 minute ago, Shamone said:

Another reason I chose never to have children.

To be fair I can't think of anything else I would rather waste my money on.

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Wight Flight
5 minutes ago, Shamone said:

Another reason I chose never to have children.

Look at it this way.

For years, scientists, geeks, programmers and whatever have dreamed of making a machine that can play droughts, then chess, then walk, play ping pong, snooker,  golf or whatever. They dream of making an AI system that can hold a passable conversation, and will take great pride, and receive massive praise for every little step they achieve along the way.

Well I have news for them. Every parent has already beaten them to it.

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7 minutes ago, Wight Flight said:

Look at it this way.

For years, scientists, geeks, programmers and whatever have dreamed of making a machine that can play droughts, then chess, then walk, play ping pong, snooker,  golf or whatever. They dream of making an AI system that can hold a passable conversation, and will take great pride, and receive massive praise for every little step they achieve along the way.

Well I have news for them. Every parent has already beaten them to it.

I can understand in an objective sense. Kids irritate the hell out of me, though. Would prefer a robot.

 

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2 hours ago, Formerly said:

Agreed. By paying your tax you are working to support the current system. Galt's Gulch won't happen for most of us. However, if you are in the position to save tens of thousands of pounds a year, you're also able to reduce your tax bill significantly. It's as easy as contributing to a SIPP. With current interest rates, even having cash sitting in a SIPP earning no interest will beat the returns of savings accounts.

If you pay 40% tax, putting money in a SIPP gets you the same return in ~6 weeks as leaving cash in a top savings account for 50 years. If you pay 20% tax, then the return is only the equivalent of 22 years in a savings account. That's the magic of compound bugger all interest for you!

As a bonus, it means less tax for the government to waste. Stop supporting the wasters and start supporting yourself.

Exactly £12.5k and everything in my SIPP when i work.Buy everything 2nd hand as well on Facebook marketplace to avoid VAT,my tax is almost zero apart from council tax.The system is about to break though.Welfare is now so lucrative that more and more are giving up work.

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sancho panza
3 minutes ago, DurhamBorn said:

Exactly £12.5k and everything in my SIPP when i work.Buy everything 2nd hand as well on Facebook marketplace to avoid VAT,my tax is almost zero apart from council tax.The system is about to break though.Welfare is now so lucrative that more and more are giving up work.

I think council tax is going to break some people this time.In 2000 Band D council tax in Leicester was £873 currently £1915.Average salary currently £25k for Leicester .ONS saying median average wage has gone from £359 to £585 2000-2019 ie up 62%.COuncil tax up 120% in the same time frame.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-10818677

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2019

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9 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

I have come to the conclusion, and this will make me sound like an incel, that the country is structured to benefit those who breed. Economic darwinism?

If you are not chosen to breed or choose not to, then you get nothing, and even more so will be expected to pay not only for yourself but for the breeders.

We all make choices. Look at the state of the vast majority of women who ride the benefits wagon (and the drop outs who propagate with them), are they really part of a life any self-respecting person would want? I can't see how one can get "jealous" of these people - I take one look at the fat, mouthy slob of a chav these blokes presumably had to nail to get those kids and think "rather you than me". And I am working class and think that so not born of class hatred. 

These men and women find each other as they're two peas in a pod. I am sure if you lost your job, started taking drugs and began knocking around with other losers your "incel" self would probably have one of the local good-for-nothing tarts all over you for her next kid. And if you had no standards you'd be happy to oblige. Rinse and repeat. It is a way of life. The important thing is to have zero standards, zero self-respect and zero employment.

 

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18 hours ago, AlfredTheLittle said:

Child benefit was introduced after ww2 to encourage people to have children. It's still encouraging people to have children, sadly our unbelievably useless politicians haven't yet caught on that there are now too many people in the uk. 

It should be got rid of for child welfare reasons if nothing else, as it encourages people who don't have any desire or ability to look after kids to keep having them.

Yes, and at that time contraception was less reliable. Now with The Pill there is no need for unwanted pregnancies, and so no justification for child benefit...if you choose to have a child then you forego another luxury, just in the same way a childless couple does to buy a more expensive house...

...but what if the child grows up with his `arse falling out of his trousers` due to poverty?

Having lived and worked in countries that have real poverty, I can see in the UK that examples like this are down to how people choose to spend their financies on non-essentials. Whilst we have a benefits system that supports at all costs people don't have to make these decisions, and so don't learn important social and financial lessons.

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18 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

Yes but there's a reason I said 'breeders'.

That's women, and the men they want to breed with.

I'm expecting to be called a nutter for this, but to take one example, my mate who works 16 hours a week. Up until he met his wife, he was living with his parents. If he had never met her, and still only wanted to work 16 hours min wage, he'd never have moved out of his mum and dad's house. Couldn't have afforded it. Having kids actually seems to have made him wealthier.

The benefit recipient that lives next door to my mate and who has the hot tub installed recently paid for by benefits; the knuckle dragger she had the kid with does actually live in the house a few days a week, it's just the government doesn't know, and thus this bloke doesn't need to shoulder the cost of housing the mother of his kid, or his kid. He can just pull up in his BMW to use the hot tub and have a shag a few times a week. My mate does 12 hour days, pays for everything, and his wife has absolutley no interest in having sex with him.

Another mate married a single mother. Works himself into the ground to pay for her, some other dudes kid, and various other things that she wastes money on. Takes all the overtime going. The father of her first kid doesn't pay a penny towards the kid and has never been asked to. My mate is completely under the thumb of his wife and the spending decisions are made by her.

So if you want to be in receipt of benefits, either directly or indirectly, be a woman, or be the kind of bloke that women want to have kids with but don't expect to support the kids.

Don't be single. Don't be disabled.

Hence I am referring to this playing out as a sort of dariwnism - benefits for the breeders.

The problem is; and the anecdotes here support this, is that most men's decisions are made with their cocks!

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13 hours ago, spunko said:

I think we're past the point of furthering the human race, now that there are 7 billion of us, and room is somewhat limited for many....!

The 'supporting me in my twilight years' angle is nonsense too, most people end up in care homes, with children that never visit.

If anything, it's better to not have children , when you're in your twilight years you'll just be constantly reminded how little they care about you.xD

Yes, this always get me....you have the offspring complaining about how expensive or bad the old people's homes are, yet they care so little that they can't be bothered about supporting (physically/emotionally not financially) their own `kith and kin` themselves....come will time though they show a greater level of [self] interest!

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VeryMeanReversion
On 14/07/2020 at 14:22, sancho panza said:

I'm pretty sure you can get the mobility allowance (and free car) for having a kid with ADHD/Aspergers.Happy to be corrected.

I once knew a paediatrician who said most kids with aspergers jsut needed some discipline once in a while.....

My lads has Aspergers and I score well above the threshold on the tests. 

I looked at the mobility allowance and getting the low-rate version (£3k p.a) was possible.  No free car. I decided it was just a piss-take so didn't apply. 

There doesn't seem to be any negative discipline factors to Aspergers, very much the opposite.  Regular routines, planning and order are important.  Logical, obsessive but low social skills.

When I talk about this, I like to point out that my sister-in-law is the complete opposite.  Ilogical, flighty, high social skills but not able to achieve anything. This doesn't get a label.

 

 

 

 

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On 14/07/2020 at 12:57, AWW said:

As I looked out of the toilet window of the London flat for which I get mugged of nearly two grand a month, I noticed the multi-generational out-of-work family in the flats opposite (they have two next door to eachother) lighting the barbecue and cracking open some lagers while their six kids frolicked in the world's biggest paddling pool.

earn over £60k you get fuck all, not even child benefit thanks to Mr Osborn..

So only poor people breed, My cousin is over 30 now, still renting.. She says she will never have kids as she cant afford them..

But had she skipped university and gone straight into baby making the rent she pays would be 0 to her and a job would be something that idiots do..

fast forward to the last child leaving home things become very different..

Your living choices shrink, along with your benefits and you are expected to work unless you can create a fake illness or real one..

My old neighbour where i rented used to have a fear of leaving the house, her husband was her carer and they got all their rent and living costs paid for..

much easier than squeezing out kids..

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haroldshand
On 14/07/2020 at 13:14, AlfredTheLittle said:

Child benefit was introduced after ww2 to encourage people to have children. It's still encouraging people to have children, sadly our unbelievably useless politicians haven't yet caught on that there are now too many people in the uk. 

It should be got rid of for child welfare reasons if nothing else, as it encourages people who don't have any desire or ability to look after kids to keep having them.

Where are the Greta Thunberg luvvies when it comes to human breeding and over population, by far the biggest concern when it comes to the survival of the planet

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haroldshand
On 17/07/2020 at 01:45, macca said:

fast forward to the last child leaving home things become very different..

Your living choices shrink, along with your benefits and you are expected to work unless you can create a fake illness or real one..

My old neighbour where i rented used to have a fear of leaving the house, her husband was her carer and they got all their rent and living costs paid for..

much easier than squeezing out kids..

Has nobody else the hoards of people who seem to walk around with a walking stick and who are walking around with the worlds worst impression of someone with a limp or are just not bothering even trying to show they have a walking problem and use the walking stick just to tap the ground occasionally

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On 14/07/2020 at 15:20, JoeDavola said:

Higher percentage of childless/single/celibate blokes than ever, being tax-cucked.

Story of my life. 9_9

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On 15/07/2020 at 07:51, MrXxxx said:

Yes, and at that time contraception was less reliable. Now with The Pill there is no need for unwanted pregnancies, and so no justification for child benefit...if you choose to have a child then you forego another luxury, just in the same way a childless couple does to buy a more expensive house...

...but what if the child grows up with his `arse falling out of his trousers` due to poverty?

Having lived and worked in countries that have real poverty, I can see in the UK that examples like this are down to how people choose to spend their financies on non-essentials. Whilst we have a benefits system that supports at all costs people don't have to make these decisions, and so don't learn important social and financial lessons.

Of course, it would help immeasurably if arsehole organised religions stopped trying to take over the world with their anti-contraception stances.

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