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Have the government been had ,follow the science ?


Long time lurking
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Long time lurking
11 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

 

That isn't SAGE

(If you thnk it is?)

Quote

The people behind All The Citizens, listed on their website, include failed Brexit whistle blower Shahmir Sanni, his lawyer Tamsin Allen, and conspiracist Carole Cadwalladr. The full list is replete with anti-Brexit activists, anti-capitalist filmmakers, and political campaigners. Not exactly a group you’d associate with independent scientific advice…

Are you suggesting there are two groups with the same name providing similar services ?

Edit AHH shadow sage WTF

Edited by Long time lurking
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7 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

Are you suggesting there are two groups with the same name providing similar services ?

There is the group called SAGE (the government advisory group) and the group calling themselves "Independent SAGE" - not the same things

SAGE participants https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies-sage-coronavirus-covid-19-response-membership/list-of-participants-of-sage-and-related-sub-groups

Independent SAGE participants https://www.independentsage.org/who-is-on-the-independent-sage/

Edited by Hopeful
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Long time lurking
2 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

There is the group called SAGE (the government advisory group) and the group calling themselves "Independent SAGE" - not the same things

SAGE participants https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scientific-advisory-group-for-emergencies-sage-coronavirus-covid-19-response-membership/list-of-participants-of-sage-and-related-sub-groups

Independent SAGE participants https://www.independentsage.org/who-is-on-the-independent-sage/

Yep i just edit that post,, a shadow sage ,whens the LGBGT sage due out 

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I do think Mr Ferguson needs a bit of a probing, and not by the hard-left political activist strumpet he was borking during lockdown, if you know what I mean.

I’d love to experience this whole event again, but with a Labour in charge, to see if/how the   advice given to the government differs.

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56 minutes ago, Reck B said:

I do think Mr Ferguson needs a bit of a probing, and not by the hard-left political activist strumpet he was borking during lockdown, if you know what I mean.

I’d love to experience this whole event again, but with a Labour in charge, to see if/how the   advice given to the government differs.

Do you remember the TV show about dealing with a terrorist event - (I think it was bombs in tube tunnels) and watching how they reacted and the consequences of the decisions they made.

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Covid19 and life to go
4 hours ago, Melchett said:

I dunno, but I cant follow your thread title. :P

I was thinking similar - if the government had had been had and the government knew that they had been had had would the government know that they had been had been had?

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1 hour ago, sarahbell said:

Do you remember the TV show about dealing with a terrorist event - (I think it was bombs in tube tunnels) and watching how they reacted and the consequences of the decisions they made.

Yes, I remember the interminable hand wringing in lieu of decision making.

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Just now, Panther said:

Yes, I remember the interminable hand wringing in lieu of decision making.

They should do a covid version.

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The Grey Man

This has been on the cards for so long. Since Hancocks half hour started back in March. The Governments...we have taken advice memo.

It seemed pretty obvious the government were laying down defences well in advance...were taking the advice of the scientific advisors...we have listened to the NHS managers...and of course the background classic...we told you thicko public...you choose your fate..your responsibility if you ignore the advice.

Seems Sir Patrick Vallance has started to feel that loose bowel movement heading south. Yep your the patsy. Or one of them. Enjoy.

Tells you a lot about the fellow. All that experience and brains, meaningless. Couldnt see his fate that many of us could.

I hope him and the other idiots who enjoyed their moments of 15 minutes of fame squeal. Let the infighting begin.

Wont be long before some senior NHS managers who ploughed the COVID sick into nursing homes to create empty hospital wards for months, to be named...let them squeal to..who ordered you from upon high in the government? They will squeal. 

The government is run with yes men (and women). Easy to pick off to save the those higher up. Grayling..thank fuck that dimwit got screwed over.

 

 

Edited by The Grey Man
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10 hours ago, The Grey Man said:

Wont be long before some senior NHS managers who ploughed the COVID sick into nursing homes to create empty hospital wards for months, to be named...let them squeal to..who ordered you from upon high in the government? They will squeal. 

Yes, I can imagine some fall guys, taking the rap. Let's call them Neil.

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Just now, eight said:

Leave me alone!

There was a Neil recently, but to add a bit of context to it, it's something I said years ago on a mess of a project which was very late. My suggestion was to blame Neil, the new graduate, as he had only been there six weeks.

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7 minutes ago, MrPin said:

There was a Neil recently, but to add a bit of context to it, it's something I said years ago on a mess of a project which was very late. My suggestion was to blame Neil, the new graduate, as he had only been there six weeks.

I used to get a lot of stick when The Young Ones was topical.

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1 minute ago, The XYY Man said:

Only if you promise not to Neil for BLM....!

 

XYY

Regarding The Young Ones, it didn't help that I was a bit "laid back" in those days. Me and a girlfriend at the time went to a fancy dress party as Shaggy and Velma out of Scooby Doo, and I didn't even have to dress up.

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Frankly, they have listened too much, it is part of the infantilisation of government, that arguably started when Brown offloaded all his key economic responsibilities onto others.

Scientists have very limited fields, they can answer quantitative questions within those limited fields, and sometimes they will get even that wrong.

Government is about making qualitative decisions covering everything. It can be informed by narrow data, not driven by it.

It is like the old saying that *insert here* is a good guide, but a poor master.

Yes, frankly, if you asked me a narrow question about how to control an epidemic like this, I might have come out with all the shit we've been labouring under, but the question for goverments is a bigger one than that. They should grow up and start making some fucking decisions instead of hiding behind 'But a scientist told me to do it!'

 

And I am a scientist, and a virologist to boot.

Edited by Melchett
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1 hour ago, Melchett said:

Scientists have very limited fields, they can answer quantitative questions within those limited fields

It's tragic. Science is numerate. Decisions on whether to or how to apply those numbers are political. We don't live in a technocracy, so why are politicians pretending we do? This started going wrong with Brown's independence for the Bank of England, IMHO, as if interest rates were somehow part of science, and not politics. We've reaped the consequences there.

I also find it funny the hiding behind "science" that is taking place at the moment. If there isn't a prospective, double-blind, randomized controlled trial to confirm and opinion or idea then it is "dangerous", "false", or "fake" regardless of what common sense would say. Our current lot wouldn't provide parachutes to the Red Devils because they could be counter productive or dangerous. After all, there is no peer-reviewed paper providing evidence parachutes save lives.

Edited by Nippy
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1 hour ago, Nippy said:

I also find it funny the hiding behind "science" that is taking place at the moment.

Sorry but it's "The Science"; as if it's all one undisputed, unquestionable, fixed entity.

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1 minute ago, janch said:

Sorry but it's "The Science"; as if it's all one undisputed, unquestionable, fixed entity.

You're right, it's monolithicly "The Science" but strangely,  "concensus" seems to follow it when uttered by a government bod. I interpret it as "the portion who are wrong"

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43 minutes ago, janch said:

Sorry but it's "The Science"; as if it's all one undisputed, unquestionable, fixed entity.

No, it's 'thuh scientz' - stuff that really clever boffins have told them about but they don't understand

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3 hours ago, Melchett said:

Frankly, they have listened too much, it is part of the infantilisation of government, that arguably started when Brown offloaded all his key economic responsibilities onto others.

Scientists have very limited fields, they can answer quantitative questions within those limited fields, and sometimes they will get even that wrong.

Government is about making qualitative decisions covering everything. It can be informed by narrow data, not driven by it.

It is like the old saying that *insert here* is a good guide, but a poor master.

Yes, frankly, if you asked me a narrow question about how to control an epidemic like this, I might have come out with all the shit we've been labouring under, but the question for goverments is a bigger one than that. They should grow up and start making some fucking decisions instead of hiding behind 'But a scientist told me to do it!'

 

And I am a scientist, and a virologist to boot.

They learned the trick after BSE - setting up the option to shift the blame for difficult political decisions or unwise policies

It's part of the reason science has lost the public's confidence

Pisses me off as it has done us  and science a disservice

Scientists provide information they don't determine policy

I can provide information and I don't give a  flying fuck what anyone does with it, or whether they listen to it or even call me an idiot. If I give information I'll just be confident it is right to the best of my knowledge and that is all that matters to me.

Because Government's fall back on the 'we are taking scientist's advice' the public now thinks that scientists determine policy, whereas governments just use science, conveniently.

Hence, science gets blamed for unpopular policies such as carbon taxes or mask wearing etc and discredited

Edited by Hopeful
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