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Is the penny starting to drop on student loans?


sancho panza

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Wight Flight
2 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

Worth every cent if you get to know the right cunts as they say in the NE.

You aren't too far off the mark.

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sancho panza
2 hours ago, Wight Flight said:

Currently $286k for four years at Stanford without scholarships.

https://www.collegecalc.org/colleges/california/stanford-university/

Msih from 2010

https://archive.mishtalk.com/2010/03/07/university-of-california-campus-erupts-in-riots-student-loan-scam-drives-up-cost-of-education-expect-more-riots/

Inquiring minds are reading about student riots at the University of California.

Students at the University of California’s flagship Berkeley campus took to the streets on Friday night, vandalizing university buildings, burning trash cans and clashing with police in the latest expression of frustration over cuts to the educational budget in California.

In November, the University of California Board of Regents voted to raise tuition by 32 percent. At the same time, professors were asked to take pay cuts or be furloughed, classes were eliminated and class size increased. Protests erupted across the University of California system, particularly at UC Davis and UCLA.

Student Loan Scam

The article mentions various reforms such as curbing recruiters, requiring more up-front disclosure, and educating borrowers about the loan process.

The real problem is the entire student loan system is a scam. The government guarantees student loans so colleges have every reason to make the loans no matter how poor the student or how high the cost of education relative to job pay upon graduation.

Government guaranteeing the loans makes the money readily available to all takers driving up the cost of education.

Expect More Riots

My friend “HB” countered with ….

There will be more riots, and over more issues. Students are traditionally always the first to riot, since most of them are young and rebellious, and therefore it’s easier to get them to engage in street protest and vent their anger.

The only groups that may even be more riot prone are French farmers and Greek public workers.

How Good Is That Education?

Pray tell what is someone going to do with a degree in English literature, social science, journalism, history, French, political science, or math?

Exactly how many jobs are available in those areas compared to the number of students getting such degrees?

Sadly, we can even ask the same questions about computer science. In the late 1970s all the way to 2000, a degree in computer science came with a near-guaranteed job. Now, computer science graduates must compete against someone from India or Russia who is willing to work for a lot less than they ever imagined.

In the early 1970s tuition at a top school like the University of Illinois was $250-$400 a semester. Now tuition is $10,000 with no guarantee of a job.

But hey, as long as government is guaranteeing student loans, places like the University of Phoenix are glad to offer an “education” to everyone coming their way.

Education System Benefits Recruiters, Administrators, Teachers, Staff

Funding schemes, loan guarantees, influence peddling, and especially government meddling have combined to make education a great deal for recruiters, administrators, professors, and staff.

Unfortunately, there is little benefit to the students for the price they pay. Indeed, the biggest education many students will receive is to learn how compound interest combined with poor salaries will make them a debt slave for life.

Mike “Mish” Shedlock

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18 hours ago, wherebee said:

It's the single biggest example I know of in recent years of a western government fucking over it's own young for shits, giggles, and power

Help to buy.

 

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1 hour ago, Wig said:

Help to buy.

 

Help to buy sucked in what - a couple of hundred thousand people tops?

 

Student loans are impacting more than half of all people born in the UK, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING YEAR. Over half of all UK kids go to Uni now, and even if they don't get a loan, their education and future work is fucked because of the devaluation of a degree.

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2 hours ago, wherebee said:

Student loans are impacting more than half of all people born in the UK, EVERY SINGLE FUCKING YEAR. Over half of all UK kids go to Uni now

I wonder how it works out as a percentage of full time workers?

Obviously sharon from the council estate who had a kid at 16, gets her council house and does 16 hours dog walking a week doesn't bother with a degree.

So in terms of those not plugged into the benefits system in some way, who have to work full time and pay their way, it'll be well over 50% of them that have to take on crippling debt for the right to spend the rest of their lives working.

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Chewing Grass
2 hours ago, wherebee said:

Over half of all UK kids go to Uni now, and even if they don't get a loan, their education and future work is fucked because of the devaluation of a degree.

They should not be going to university if they don't need to, the whole 'education, education, education' scam was dreamt up by New Labour to fiddle the youth unemployment figures.

75% of the kids currently going to 'uni' should be going into vocational training first and then doing a degree part-time if they have the aptitude and it is of benefit.

Quality not quantity.

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2 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

They should not be going to university if they don't need to, the whole 'education, education, education' scam was dreamt up by New Labour to fiddle the youth unemployment figures.

75% of the kids currently going to 'uni' should be going into vocational training first and then doing a degree part-time if they have the aptitude and it is of benefit.

Quality not quantity.

Its back to me saying HE should require a C or higher pass in A levels.

Speccytwatcat always has a go at me.

But if you think of a btter filter that will serve to filter out the less than studios/bright?

As it is Im constanly hearing - Oh I failed all my GCSEs and the teachers wrote me off as think but Im going to University now!*

 

* - with a crap access to HE course, which is less than GCSE level and they are studying something so gormless and non vocational is not worthwhile. Your GCSE teachers were probably in the ballpark.

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1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Its back to me saying HE should require a C or higher pass in A levels.

Speccytwatcat always has a go at me.

But if you think of a btter filter that will serve to filter out the less than studios/bright?

As it is Im constanly hearing - Oh I failed all my GCSEs and the teachers wrote me off as think but Im going to University now!*

 

* - with a crap access to HE course, which is less than GCSE level and they are studying something so gormless and non vocational is not worthwhile. Your GCSE teachers were probably in the ballpark.

This year will be interesting: a combination of the virus and pick your own grades pretty much.

Lots of people would avoid going as paying lots of money for self-study seems like a poor deal; lots of others on their higher predicted grades will get on the courses that may be too difficult for them

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7 hours ago, Bear Hug said:

This year will be interesting: a combination of the virus and pick your own grades pretty much.

Lots of people would avoid going as paying lots of money for self-study seems like a poor deal; lots of others on their higher predicted grades will get on the courses that may be too difficult for them

It is. I've done a standard degree and a self study masters at the OU. They just aren't comparable in level and standard of tuition. Self study generally means buy a few books and get on with it. There's nothing like tuition. If I was a parent advising a sibling, I'd be saying hold off. 

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2 hours ago, Green Devil said:

It is. I've done a standard degree and a self study masters at the OU. They just aren't comparable in level and standard of tuition. Self study generally means buy a few books and get on with it. There's nothing like tuition. If I was a parent advising a sibling, I'd be saying hold off. 

I looked into doing OU (my mother did one when I was a nipper and it seemed really rewarding).  The costs were astronomical!

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On 10/08/2020 at 22:18, sancho panza said:

Interesting that this was forwarded to me on Whatsapp.Dare I ask whether this is the thin end of the wedge?

The poster doesn't realise that he's been charged RPI plus 3% for 13 years and that when it coems to getting a mortgage,it is included in the calcs.

He also hasn't twigged that if inflation moves up,then his repayments will be higher than £120k........

IMG-20200810-WA0003.jpg

IMG-20200810-WA0002.jpg

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

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On 11/08/2020 at 12:43, Castlevania said:

From a legal perspective UK student loans aren’t debt because you can’t default on them.

It’s a graduate tax with the optionality to pay it off. The interest rates are high so that they can fleece the more productive (higher earners) to help fund those who will never even make any repayments.

So operating like most taxes in the UK then, those at the top can afford the accountants to avoid paying them, those at the bottom only take from the system, and those in the middle end up paying for both...I can remember my father stating "Son in the UK you have either got to be rich or poor, but forget about working for a living otherwise you will be shafted"

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18 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

They should not be going to university if they don't need to, the whole 'education, education, education' scam was dreamt up by New Labour to fiddle the youth unemployment figures.

75% of the kids currently going to 'uni' should be going into vocational training first and then doing a degree part-time if they have the aptitude and it is of benefit.

Quality not quantity.

Couldn't agree more, so why can others not see it for what it is?...I believe this is for two reasons:

a) Social, `keeping up with the Jones`s`/snobbery "Well my Jimmy is going to University [of obscure, non-descript place in UK]"

b) Drifting, the youngster concerned hasn't been encouraged to think seriously about what he/she is going to do after school so its easier to follow their peer group into university.

And as universities are now `customer focused` businesses they are hardly going to turn away paying customers until they are full to the brim...in a good recruitment year this equates to overcrowding, in a poor one (as per this year) it will equate to a lowering of admission standards.

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7 hours ago, Green Devil said:

It is. I've done a standard degree and a self study masters at the OU. They just aren't comparable in level and standard of tuition. Self study generally means buy a few books and get on with it. There's nothing like tuition. If I was a parent advising a sibling, I'd be saying hold off. 

I've found some lectures to be just an exercise of trying to keep with a professor quickly scribbling notes on a whiteboard, and then trying to work what it all means in my own time later. 

Definitely preferred self study notes provided by BPP for courses required for my work. Of course, the best combination were courses with the proper printed notes and the full time tuition. 

So my point is that the self study could work well for some, it's just seems like there should be a discount compared to the full blown tuition fees: fewer facilities are being used, lecturers may be needed for shorter periods of time, and could spend more time on research etc

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1 hour ago, MrXxxx said:

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

Not really fair.

This is an 18yo, whos had a load of bullshit spun to him by loads of adults and orgs.

Why do PPI get refunded but scam student loans dont?

 

 

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2 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

18 year old encouraged to go by their elders; they would not be the target of my ire.

What's shocking to me is that the interest rate is set at 6% to provide a reasonable return - maybe 3% - on the loan book as a whole after write-offs.

What this means is that the people who should never have gone in the first place get a freebie because they will never earn enough to trigger repayment but somebody like the OP, who is exactly the sort of person we want to be going to uni, is then effectively paying interest upon both his own debt and that of an unemployable Gender Studies graduate from London Met.

That's simply wrong.  The interest rate should be set at a fair market level for the individual on the assumption that they are going to pay it back and when this starts costing a fortune perhaps the government will finally wake up to the fact that places like London Metropolitan, degrees like Gender Studies, and 75% of students should not be funded by the government through student loans. 

And certainly not be funded by graduates who are actually successful.  

 

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36 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

18 year old encouraged to go by their elders; they would not be the target of my ire.

What's shocking to me is that the interest rate is set at 6% to provide a reasonable return - maybe 3% - on the loan book as a whole after write-offs.

What this means is that the people who should never have gone in the first place get a freebie because they will never earn enough to trigger repayment but somebody like the OP, who is exactly the sort of person we want to be going to uni, is then effectively paying interest upon both his own debt and that of an unemployable Gender Studies graduate from London Met.

That's simply wrong.  The interest rate should be set at a fair market level for the individual on the assumption that they are going to pay it back and when this starts costing a fortune perhaps the government will finally wake up to the fact that places like London Metropolitan, degrees like Gender Studies, and 75% of students should not be funded by the government through student loans. 

And certainly not be funded by graduates who are actually successful.  

 

This.

He -as its normally a a 'he' who pays the student loan off, is  not just paying X'mbee to do Black lesbian studies but also Ng'ooX to teach Black lesbian studies. And her pnesion.

UKGOV has the NI numbers, it has the Uni  attended and the study studied.

That needs to to be used to decide further funding.

 

 

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7 hours ago, wherebee said:

I looked into doing OU (my mother did one when I was a nipper and it seemed really rewarding).  The costs were astronomical!

They are now. Never used to be, as I know  a few who took the OU route.

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3 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

This is very true.At 18 i understood enough about money to know what interest was and what happened if it increased faster than wages etc.Iv noticed among my childrens friends a complete lack of understanding about money.Iv also noticed its broad based.Middle class,higher working class parents (and more their grandparents) shower them with money (the idea of someone getting a new to three year old car after passing would be an urban myth in the 80s) to the tax credit/bennie brigade who have massive disposable income as they know the money is flowing in each week,no chance of job loss etc.

Iv also noticed most of it is parents on government money,benefits,government and council wages and/or government pensions.

Unis and degrees have become a way to pass massive amounts of money to lefties funded by people working in factories.As always the left is the enemy of the poor,they just never understand it until middle age.

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2 minutes ago, DurhamBorn said:

This is very true.At 18 i understood enough about money to know what interest was and what happened if it increased faster than wages etc.Iv noticed among my childrens friends a complete lack of understanding about money.Iv also noticed its broad based.Middle class,higher working class parents (and more their grandparents) shower them with money (the idea of someone getting a new to three year old car after passing would be an urban myth in the 80s) to the tax credit/bennie brigade who have massive disposable income as they know the money is flowing in each week,no chance of job loss etc.

Iv also noticed most of it is parents on government money,benefits,government and council wages and/or government pensions.

My sister bought her daughter a new fiat when she was 18, and paid for her to go to uni to do an art course for 3 years.  cost 60k.  The daughter, whilst lovely, now works as staff in a London hotel.

For fucks sake, you could have given her 60k in her pocket and that would have done more for her life choices.

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3 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

This isn't really applicable here I don't think. The money is used in theory to become a useful member of society - i.e. would you trust a doctor who hasn't been to medical school? Would you want the engineer in the original post to design a bridge without studying engineering? etc etc. The issue is that Unis are essentially a racket, as they are the only places able to give out the recognised qualifications necessary to work in some industries.

Blaming the person for taking out the loan is backwards thinking here. Blame the society that has set itself up so that socially useful jobs and education are only available through this loan system, or personal wealth.

Edit: I do think this is different for some non-vocational degrees, and tbh I think they should still exist but be charged less fees for. The issue is that all Unis charge the max fees for every course, whereas it was originally naively conceived of as a market with different Unis charging different prices. Also, I prefer to live in a world where we have highly trained historians, musicians, etc etc than not, but I do think that the average working or lower middle class person needs to seriously consider the financial consequences of going down the humanities route.

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1 hour ago, MrPin said:

They are now. Never used to be, as I know  a few who took the OU route.

Yes, the cost of OU courses went up three or four fold.   They are no longer the affordable option for the working person who wishes to extend their education.  Their site seems to on a go slow but one line said OU degree courses costs the same as other degree courses in England.  You are paying the full £9k per year or whatever for a correspondence course as you would if you had multiple lectures, practicals, and study sessions.

I had long intended to do an OU degree as a hobby part time upon retirement, presumably taking six years, and then do another and so on in order to properly explore subjects that interest me.

Had they not shot up in price I'd already be registered and ready for the Michaelmas term.  Probably one of Botany or Maths.

As it is I may pick up on those Harvard online courses when the nights start drawing in.

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