Is the penny starting to drop on student loans?

[MrXxxx]

10 hours ago, DurhamBorn said:

When i started with Glaxosmithkline thats what they did.I got put with a guy with 35 years service and the manager said train him.That department was very technical,but worked like a dream, making and launching some of the biggest drugs in the world.None of the lads had a degree apart from the instrument technicians and engineers

That was a different time though, when the UK had a predominantly manufacturing based economy; I can remember the BAE aircraft site at Hatfield that had their own apprentice school on site for 350 apprentices. Then in the 80s/90s industry decided they no longer wanted to be responsible for their own training...

...im sure the young apprentices learn a lot more than just engine engineering tolerances from the old boys as well! :-)

[Chewing Grass]

CEGB, British Rail, British Steel, Leyland Trucks, British Aerospace, Rolls Royce, UKAEA, NCB, the list goes on and on, all had their own training centres, fully kitted out. dedicated training staff to churn out people highly skilled in what their business did.

Then along came the accountants and business consultants at the time of 'privatisation' or cost cutting and it all got chucked in the bin on the back of a pool of floating labour from the cost cutting.

Now the domestic pool has evaporated and been replaced by a foreign one. with which those who are paying for their own very expensive 3rd rate training are having to compete.

Young, Enthusiastic, Cheap & Keen.

[stop_the_craziness]

12 hours ago, Green Devil said:

So if you are a company and hire an apprentice you get it all paid by the gov? Ffs! I bet that loophole is being sucked hard by the one man bands! 

Not just the one-man bands.  One of my sister's boys got an apprenticeship doing IT-type stuff with a large company in London.  They told him he was amazing, but still ditched him the moment the apprenticeship ended because why give him a job at the end of it when they could get the next kid for cheap/free instead?  It's pretty brutal.

[MrLibertyRedux]

1 hour ago, stop_the_craziness said:

Not just the one-man bands.  One of my sister's boys got an apprenticeship doing IT-type stuff with a large company in London.  They told him he was amazing, but still ditched him the moment the apprenticeship ended because why give him a job at the end of it when they could get the next kid for cheap/free instead?  It's pretty brutal.

Yes, this happened in the early nineties recession to a bunch of friends who left at sixteen to do apprenticeships, some with firms like British Steel et cetera.

Apart from one who was with a family firm, every single one of them was canned when their apprenticeship finished or the funding from the govt tapered off.

Bloodbath summer. Someone turned up in the pub every Friday to announce they were the next one.

[spygirl]

12 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

CEGB, British Rail, British Steel, Leyland Trucks, British Aerospace, Rolls Royce, UKAEA, NCB, the list goes on and on, all had their own training centres, fully kitted out. dedicated training staff to churn out people highly skilled in what their business did.

Then along came the accountants and business consultants at the time of 'privatisation' or cost cutting and it all got chucked in the bin on the back of a pool of floating labour from the cost cutting.

Now the domestic pool has evaporated and been replaced by a foreign one. with which those who are paying for their own very expensive 3rd rate training are having to compete.

Young, Enthusiastic, Cheap & Keen.

Well .... some are those hit end of road (NCB, British Steel) some are state backed abortions (British Leyland)

The accountants n bullshitters an privatisation are all tied up with the rise of stocks being seen as a viable investment, which only dates back to the 70s.

Before stock, people invested in bonds fixed investment.

Equity was seen as risky and companies were slush fund of their management n board, companies being bloated toys of the board - breweries owning golf courses, that sort of fuckwittery.

Some large cos were very well run, mainly large US ones, think IBM, who managed to offer employees benefits  AND investing the business AND provide a return to their investors. Only up yo the late 80s, when it all went to shit.

So, equity markets grew. Everyone was raising equity, as it was be cheaper than bank debt. And more flexible. And it was seen as magical growth n money making. Except it wasnt.

Of course, the whole equity raising side became expensive, with the investment side become slow, sluggish, bloated and expensive whilst the companies became leaner, then skinny, then starved. Reaching an end point where most companies floated in UK from 2000 onwards collapse a few years later. But the investment banks do well on fees.

UK privatisation was in - unleash the giants. Worked for some, didnt work for others. However, governments are the worse owners of companies, so I've no gripe with privitisation. Governmentstge state  should be tiny, for good reason.

And with equity, the quarters number become ever important. And the people involved with them become the high priests- accountants, MBA bullshitters.

However ..... its failed.

Accountants ended up pulling so much money from the future, getting rid of so many 'costs' companies became nothing more than zero growth investment trusts.

Just look at the state of the big 4 as a good reason to avoid putting acvoubtahts in charge.

This would not matter so much, if it wasnt for the rise of software, which relies on highly skilled people to write n maintain.

Software is neither plant or labour, which are the only two things orgs stand a chance of managing.

But using software you can seriously track n reduce your capital employed - see all the bricknmortars retailers.

It can also reduce your labour costs. A lot of my commercial interactions dont involved a person - i fill in a form, its dispatched, the computer kicks off a robot etc.That was not the case even in the 90s..

Look at the US highest value, most profitable colleagues- all pretty much software.

Look at GE, the poster child for equity, mbas, accountants 89x n all that.. Fucked, bust.

Get away from the large companies, and sll I see in my nising about about, are companies that have zilch software capacity, belatedly saying 'We need software heads but cant recruit' which is another way of saying not competing on salaries  or meeting cost of local property.

Companies are complex and the environment gas shifted. Stripping down and not investing has doomed lots of irgc to death.

Thsts the way cspiyilidm works.

Having daft governments n central banks trying to maintain zombie irg, whilst inflating property costs is tye most fucked headed thing going.

Ditto 'save our high streets ' business rates are too high.

Rates are based on rents, rents need to collapse. Governments need yo ask why rents are not falling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[spygirl]

13 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

That was a different time though, when the UK had a predominantly manufacturing based economy; I can remember the BAE aircraft site at Hatfield that had their own apprentice school on site for 350 apprentices. Then in the 80s/90s industry decided they no longer wanted to be responsible for their own training...

...im sure the young apprentices learn a lot more than just engine engineering tolerances from the old boys as well! :-)

Most UK manufacturing in the 60s n 70s which people go on about, was shit.

They did not keep up with technology n process, having too many people and not enough plant or process.

BAE were are a shit company thats propped up by ukgov. Most of the stuff theyve made in last 40 years has been garbage and useless in wars.

[spygirl]

2 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

Not just the one-man bands.  One of my sister's boys got an apprenticeship doing IT-type stuff with a large company in London.  They told him he was amazing, but still ditched him the moment the apprenticeship ended because why give him a job at the end of it when they could get the next kid for cheap/free instead?  It's pretty brutal.

IT is just plugging in cables. , shifting boxes It's not an apprenticeship, just work experience.

Hes actually a subbed low level gofa..

If hed actually learned anything useful theyd have kept him.

90% of modern apprenticeships is nothing more than shit  shorterm YTS.

[gibbon]

On 13/08/2020 at 06:54, MrXxxx said:

What is reflective of the society that we have now is the way its somebody else fault I.e "The UK govt screwed up.."..."The lack of advice....."......no my friend, YOU screwed up because YOU took out a loan without investigating all the consequences!.....do people really think there is a `money tree` where you can borrow without any costs?!...this shows the infantalism of the UK population.

A youngster will struggle to get a professional job without a degree. Because every tom, dick and harry has one now, it's used by some lazy Sharron in HR with 2,000 CVs from 21 year olds sat on her desk to easily and instantly bin the 25% who don't have one.

[DownwardSpiral]

21 minutes ago, gibbon said:

A youngster will struggle to get a professional job without a degree. Because every tom, dick and harry has one now, it's used by some lazy Sharron in HR with 2,000 CVs from 21 year olds sat on her desk to easily and instantly bin the 25% who don't have one.

If HR even bother doing the sifting anymore!

I have to sift through the applications for any of the jobs I put out, but despite hating it I wouldn’t want HR doing it anyway as you can guarantee it will be a lottery. The only fun I get is spotting the applications being put forward by people who are just doing it to say “they’ve tried” and subsequently keep their bennies stream going. A nice Job Centre special.

 

[spygirl]

On 13/08/2020 at 03:12, wherebee said:

I looked into doing OU (my mother did one when I was a nipper and it seemed really rewarding).  The costs were astronomical!

It didnt use to me.

I was planning in doing maths/stats a few years after graduating. Put off as life got in the way. Bit interest, bit work, bit CV, bit backup.

Going at a steady rate, expecting to finish in 5/6 years PT, say 10/20h a week, it would have cost about 1kish a year.

About 3x that noe, after they bumped up the tutuition yo keep it in line with the Uni tution.

Should not be.

UK HE - and elsewhere- is a total clusterfuck.

Collection of smart people my arse.

 

[spygirl]

26 minutes ago, DownwardSpiral said:

If HR even bother doing the sifting anymore!

I have to sift through the applications for any of the jobs I put out, but despite hating it I wouldn’t want HR doing it anyway as you can guarantee it will be a lottery. The only fun I get is spotting the applications being put forward by people who are just doing it to say “they’ve tried” and subsequently keep their bennies stream going. A nice Job Centre special.

 

Never get HR to sift.

Give them an ad, tell them were to put ut it, then collect up the CVs and pass them to you.

 

[MrXxxx]

1 hour ago, gibbon said:

A youngster will struggle to get a professional job without a degree. Because every tom, dick and harry has one now, it's used by some lazy Sharron in HR with 2,000 CVs from 21 year olds sat on her desk to easily and instantly bin the 25% who don't have one.

So `Get your feet under the table` before `Tom, Dick or Harry` apply by doing a modern apprenticeship.

[gibbon]

1 hour ago, MrXxxx said:

So `Get your feet under the table` before `Tom, Dick or Harry` apply by doing a modern apprenticeship.

Completely agree, but what if you're one of the thousands who apply for each decent apprenticeship who doesn't get it? Then what? Spend the next 4 years as an temp admin grunt in the same company spending your days photocopying and making cups of tea hoping to get noticed? Or fuck off to uni with the rest of your mates? Not exactly a difficult decision.

[MrXxxx]

12 minutes ago, gibbon said:

Or fuck off to uni with the rest of your mates?

....get your degree, and apply for the admin job doing photocopying and making tea all day?....but lets look on the bright side, at least you wont have to pay back that £50k loan you have got `around your neck` until 55, as you won't be earning enough!

[Wight Flight]

Does anyone know how the student maintenance loan works?

Mine has been offered £9,300 per year but he doesn't think he will need it all.

Does it get paid automatically, or do you draw it down as and when required?

[VeryMeanReversion]

On 14/08/2020 at 21:24, MrXxxx said:

No, not all of it, the company can get up to 95% paid by government but they have to commit to the apprentices time off (usually 1 day a week) to attend uni...so all in all it probably costs them £1500 pa in salary and £500 pa uni fees for a 3-4 year period.

Non-levy paying companies (<50 employees, <£3M payroll) pay 0%.  Others pay 5%.

They have to pay wages whilst you are at Uni but the apprentice rate is so low, its basically the same as paying min wage full time whilst they are actually working at the company.

Say £3h for 25/hour week = £75/week. 52 weeks = £3900 per year.

Uni for 28 weeks, company for 20 weeks, 4/5 weeks holiday.  £3K subsidy for taking on an apprentice.

Net first year cost = £900 for 500 hours of work from a bright 18 year old.

 

 

 

 

 

[Harley]

On 14/08/2020 at 21:24, MrXxxx said:

No, not all of it, the company can get up to 95% paid by government but they have to commit to the apprentices time off (usually 1 day a week) to attend uni...so all in all it probably costs them £1500 pa in salary and £500 pa uni fees for a 3-4 year period.

A bargain, once you've put their phones in the cement mixer!

[Craig]

On 15/08/2020 at 12:31, spygirl said:

It didnt use to me.

I was planning in doing maths/stats a few years after graduating. Put off as life got in the way. Bit interest, bit work, bit CV, bit backup.

Going at a steady rate, expecting to finish in 5/6 years PT, say 10/20h a week, it would have cost about 1kish a year.

About 3x that noe, after they bumped up the tutuition yo keep it in line with the Uni tution.

Should not be.

UK HE - and elsewhere- is a total clusterfuck.

Collection of smart people my arse.

 

Do they do typing courses?!

[RJT1979]

On 13/08/2020 at 08:21, Bear Hug said:

I've found some lectures to be just an exercise of trying to keep with a professor quickly scribbling notes on a whiteboard, and then trying to work what it all means in my own time later. 

Definitely preferred self study notes provided by BPP for courses required for my work. Of course, the best combination were courses with the proper printed notes and the full time tuition. 

So my point is that the self study could work well for some, it's just seems like there should be a discount compared to the full blown tuition fees: fewer facilities are being used, lecturers may be needed for shorter periods of time, and could spend more time on research etc

thats exactly what it was in 1997, trying to read scribbled notes on a projector.

[spygirl]

35 minutes ago, RJT1979 said:

thats exactly what it was in 1997, trying to read scribbled notes on a projector.

I think education needs to be framed:

Before PDF

And after PDF.

 

[spygirl]

He said it was strongly suspected that the youngster’s offending could be put down to the “malign influence” of his mate and fellow arsonist who was of a similar age and had racked up a “shocking” 41 previous offences.

Mr Peacock said his client no longer consorted with the youth, had been trouble-free for the past 12 months and was no longer taking drugs or drinking.

[Chewing Grass]

Pretty good analysis of student loans.

 

[Hancock]

4 hours ago, Chewing Grass said:

Pretty good analysis of student loans.

 

I think he's full of shit, had to stop at the part where he sobs for those working at the loans companies being out of a job.