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Is the penny starting to drop on student loans?


sancho panza

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sancho panza
3 hours ago, Bear Hug said:

I've found some lectures to be just an exercise of trying to keep with a professor quickly scribbling notes on a whiteboard, and then trying to work what it all means in my own time later. 

Definitely preferred self study notes provided by BPP for courses required for my work. Of course, the best combination were courses with the proper printed notes and the full time tuition. 

So my point is that the self study could work well for some, it's just seems like there should be a discount compared to the full blown tuition fees: fewer facilities are being used, lecturers may be needed for shorter periods of time, and could spend more time on research etc

I've studied at Uni recently and I msut say,the amount of home study was high ie watch this youtube video etc.

In terms of paramedic training,I think we should go back to day release-some Ambulance services already offer their own in house programmes(which is what I did).There's a huge attrition rate when people go on the road,with a lot dropping out in the first year or two due to the pressures.It's one thing reading what to do when someone's got blood pouring out of them,it's another thing dealing with it when you've got a few people screaming at you or you're first on scene at an incident and noone has any idea how many casualties/what's happened etc

They jsut can't put those emtions in a text book to explain hwo you'll feel.

2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

18 year old encouraged to go by their elders; they would not be the target of my ire.

What's shocking to me is that the interest rate is set at 6% to provide a reasonable return - maybe 3% - on the loan book as a whole after write-offs.

What this means is that the people who should never have gone in the first place get a freebie because they will never earn enough to trigger repayment but somebody like the OP, who is exactly the sort of person we want to be going to uni, is then effectively paying interest upon both his own debt and that of an unemployable Gender Studies graduate from London Met.

That's simply wrong.  The interest rate should be set at a fair market level for the individual on the assumption that they are going to pay it back and when this starts costing a fortune perhaps the government will finally wake up to the fact that places like London Metropolitan, degrees like Gender Studies, and 75% of students should not be funded by the government through student loans. 

And certainly not be funded by graduates who are actually successful.  

 

The interest rate is RPI +3%.Just to explain,,my employer paid me to do mine and I paid £9000 out of my salary over 30 months .I earned a salary all the way through.Which shows that it can be done by employers.

The whole issue of gender/film studies really needs putting out there because it's criminal taking those kids money and getting them into debt for that.

1 hour ago, DurhamBorn said:

This is very true.At 18 i understood enough about money to know what interest was and what happened if it increased faster than wages etc.Iv noticed among my childrens friends a complete lack of understanding about money.Iv also noticed its broad based.Middle class,higher working class parents (and more their grandparents) shower them with money (the idea of someone getting a new to three year old car after passing would be an urban myth in the 80s) to the tax credit/bennie brigade who have massive disposable income as they know the money is flowing in each week,no chance of job loss etc.

Iv also noticed most of it is parents on government money,benefits,government and council wages and/or government pensions.

Unis and degrees have become a way to pass massive amounts of money to lefties funded by people working in factories.As always the left is the enemy of the poor,they just never understand it until middle age.

In a nutshell.

Below are three columns,first run at 6% ,second at 7% and third at 8% over 34 years of compound interest if loan not touched.Taxpayer getting hosed right here.

All it takes for those debts to moonshoot is a run up in RPI.Look at the final figure for 8%...............................what are we doing to our kids jsut so some marxists can have a job for life teaching soft subjects.I have no issue with STEM subjects/medicine being taught at Uni.

        6%                               7%                                8%

50000   50000   50000
53000   53500   54000
56180   57245   58320
59550.8   61252.15   62985.6
63123.85   65539.8   68024.45
66911.28   70127.59   73466.4
70925.96   75036.52   79343.72
75181.51   80289.07   85691.21
79692.4   85909.31   92546.51
84473.95   91922.96   99950.23
89542.38   98357.57   107946.2
94914.93   105242.6   116581.9
100609.8   112609.6   125908.5
106646.4   120492.3   135981.2
113045.2   128926.7   146859.7
119827.9   137951.6   158608.5
127017.6   147608.2   171297.1
134638.6   157940.8   185000.9
142717   168996.6   199801
151280   180826.4   215785.1
160356.8   193484.2   233047.9
169978.2   207028.1   251691.7
180176.9   221520.1   271827
190987.5   237026.5   293573.2
202446.7   253618.3   317059
214593.5   271371.6   342423.8
227469.1   290367.6   369817.7
241117.3   310693.4   399403.1
255584.3   332441.9   431355.3
270919.4   355712.9   465863.7
287174.6   380612.8   503132.8
304405   407255.6   543383.5
322669.3   435763.5   586854.1
342029.5   466267   633802.5
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
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reformed nice guy
1 hour ago, Hardhat said:

Blaming the person for taking out the loan is backwards thinking here. Blame the society that has set itself up so that socially useful jobs and education are only available through this loan system, or personal wealth.

Edit: I do think this is different for some non-vocational degrees, and tbh I think they should still exist but be charged less fees for. The issue is that all Unis charge the max fees for every course, whereas it was originally naively conceived of as a market with different Unis charging different prices. Also, I prefer to live in a world where we have highly trained historians, musicians, etc etc than not, but I do think that the average working or lower middle class person needs to seriously consider the financial consequences of going down the humanities route.

The choice should not be down to the individual. The universities should only have a tiny intake, perhaps a few hundred for the whole UK, for people studying things like medieval history. It should be extremely competitive so that only the most able actually study it and the majority of the graduates should end up in a related profession.

Instead they go on to be the girl that serves you coffee at Pret or answers the phone at the local council office.

I wish I could find the link, but someone calculated that there are more graduates of an undergraduate course in a subject (possibly forensic science) in one year than there would be jobs in that field over that one years working life.

I think the problem is semantic. There is now university education and "university" education. The latter is living off the prestige of the former and bringing its reputation down. 

I dont know what the answer is, but I guess that it will be a recognition that university for most is an effective extension of high school.

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sancho panza
Just now, reformed nice guy said:

The choice should not be down to the individual. The universities should only have a tiny intake, perhaps a few hundred for the whole UK, for people studying things like medieval history. It should be extremely competitive so that only the most able actually study it and the majority of the graduates should end up in a related profession.

Instead they go on to be the girl that serves you coffee at Pret or answers the phone at the local council office.

I wish I could find the link, but someone calculated that there are more graduates of an undergraduate course in a subject (possibly forensic science) in one year than there would be jobs in that field over that one years working life.

I think the problem is semantic. There is now university education and "university" education. The latter is living off the prestige of the former and bringing its reputation down. 

I dont know what the answer is, but I guess that it will be a recognition that university for most is an effective extension of high school.

exactly.

ref forensic science there are apparently 4000 graduates a year and 30 jobs a year in Police services.

I think the answer is toi reduce loans for soft courses,take things like Nursing/paramedicing back to day release at college.We need 100,000 graduates a year in decent subjects,not 300,000

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Wight Flight

The answer is to scrap student loans, and place the entire cost of the system on to employers NI for anyone employing a graduate, no matter when they graduated.

I haven't worked out the amount but I think 3% would probably cover it.

This would share the burden with those that got it free years ago, and also make people think very hard about doing a worthless degree because it makes them more expensive to employ for their entire life.

It would also stop employers demanding degree qualifications when they really aren't needed.

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stop_the_craziness
2 hours ago, wherebee said:

My sister bought her daughter a new fiat when she was 18, and paid for her to go to uni to do an art course for 3 years.  cost 60k.  The daughter, whilst lovely, now works as staff in a London hotel.

For fucks sake, you could have given her 60k in her pocket and that would have done more for her life choices.

I totally understand your point from a financial perspective, but it would be a sad world if every single experience was measured only in pounds, shillings and pence. 

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5 hours ago, spygirl said:

Not really fair.

This is an 18yo, whos had a load of bullshit spun to him by loads of adults and orgs.

Why do PPI get refunded but scam student loans dont?

 

 

Did you ` hear` me defending PPI?...at 18 he is old enough to vote, work, drink, and fu@£ (either sex), so I assume that makes him an adult?...and with being an adult you are responsible for making  your own decisions, and just as importantly being responsible for the consequences of these...why do `we` as a society then try to absolve individuals of these when they are not favourable ones, and so in the long run infantalise them?

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5 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

Did you ` hear` me defending PPI?...at 18 he is old enough to vote, work, drink, and fu@£ (either sex), so I assume that makes him an adult?...and with being an adult you are responsible for making  your own decisions, and just as importantly being responsible for the consequences of these...why do `we` as a society then try to absolve individuals of these when they are not favourable ones, and so in the long run infantalise them?

Nope.

You have an 18yo, barely out of school, never worked, never dealt with much beyond parents and school, being asked to make a decision that will affect him or her for ~30 years.

The odds are stacked against him.

 

If UKGOV cannot decide which HE courses are worthwhile doing, with all their data at their finger tips and legions of civil servants to collect and analyse data, what change does Dazza 2 D +1 B have?

Orgs n people lie.

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/university-of-east-anglia-a17-390154.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/marketing-claims-students-which-university-rankings-advertising-standards-authority-a8547416.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41984465

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/university-of-west-london-a17-393188.html

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/teesside-university-a17-395184.html

Teesside University said that the term “graduate prospects” was common parlance in the higher education sector in reference to graduate outcomes, especially relating to graduates continuing on to further study and employment, and that the term was not generally related to earnings. It provided examples of other organisations in the sector referring to graduate prospects to mean the destination of students after graduating to employment or further study, rather than earnings. The examples included the methodologies behind widely recognised university league tables and the Higher Education Statistics Agency’s (HESA) destination surveys of leavers of higher education. Additionally, it stated that as the ads in question referred specifically to “prospects” and not earnings, it was predominantly focused on whether graduates had continued on to employment and/or further study rather than their levels of pay.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

18 year old encouraged to go by their elders; they would not be the target of my ire.

What's shocking to me is that the interest rate is set at 6% to provide a reasonable return - maybe 3% - on the loan book as a whole after write-offs.

What this means is that the people who should never have gone in the first place get a freebie because they will never earn enough to trigger repayment but somebody like the OP, who is exactly the sort of person we want to be going to uni, is then effectively paying interest upon both his own debt and that of an unemployable Gender Studies graduate from London Met.

That's simply wrong.  The interest rate should be set at a fair market level for the individual on the assumption that they are going to pay it back and when this starts costing a fortune perhaps the government will finally wake up to the fact that places like London Metropolitan, degrees like Gender Studies, and 75% of students should not be funded by the government through student loans. 

And certainly not be funded by graduates who are actually successful.  

 

You make some very good points, and why the rate is so high....but the same arguments could be made for credit cards...just like a credit card, we know what the interest rate is when we apply, so should we have an amnesty for those and reduce the APR to 3%?...

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8 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

You make some very good points, and why the rate is so high....but the same arguments could be made for credit cards...just like a credit card, we know what the interest rate is when we apply, so should we have an amnesty for those and reduce the APR to 3%?...

You can choose not to get a credit card.

If you want to go to uni and don't have private wealth, you can't choose not to get a student loan.

The choice then is not to go to uni. Fine for some people, a huge waste of potential for others.

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3 hours ago, Hardhat said:

The money is used in theory to become a useful member of society - i.e. would you trust a doctor who hasn't been to medical school? Would you want the engineer in the original post to design a bridge without studying engineering?

A road sweeper is a useful member of society, but he/she doesn't need a degree to do his/her job, as a lot of newly minted undergrads are finding out when after graduation they can only get minimum wage position...and regarding our ngineer, if a career after graduation doesn't pay enough to give you the standard of living you require, you have chosen the wrong career/degree...I wanted to be an artist but didn't fancy the idea of living in a garret all my life so chose differently.

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22 minutes ago, spygirl said:

Nope.

You have an 18yo, barely out of school, never worked, never dealt with much beyond parents and school, being asked to make a decision that will affect him or her for ~30 years.

The odds are stacked against him.

 

If UKGOV cannot decide which HE courses are worthwhile doing, with all their data at their finger tips and legions of civil servants to collect and analyse data, what change does Dazza 2 D +1 B have?

Orgs n people lie.

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/university-of-east-anglia-a17-390154.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/marketing-claims-students-which-university-rankings-advertising-standards-authority-a8547416.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41984465

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/university-of-west-london-a17-393188.html

https://www.asa.org.uk/rulings/teesside-university-a17-395184.html

Teesside University said that the term “graduate prospects” was common parlance in the higher education sector in reference to graduate outcomes, especially relating to graduates continuing on to further study and employment, and that the term was not generally related to earnings. It provided examples of other organisations in the sector referring to graduate prospects to mean the destination of students after graduating to employment or further study, rather than earnings. The examples included the methodologies behind widely recognised university league tables and the Higher Education Statistics Agency’s (HESA) destination surveys of leavers of higher education. Additionally, it stated that as the ads in question referred specifically to “prospects” and not earnings, it was predominantly focused on whether graduates had continued on to employment and/or further study rather than their levels of pay.

 

 

 

So how do we/he learn in life without being allowed to make our own decisions...some good, some bad...thats what life is about and you can't keep them in `cotton wool` all their lives, unless you plan to do this from the `cradle to the grave`?

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1 minute ago, MrXxxx said:

A road sweeper is a useful member of society, but he/she doesn't need a degree to do his/her job,

Sure, so we could all be road sweepers. The roads would be spotless, partly because nobody would be designing the vehicles that drive on them.

Society needs some people to be road sweepers, some to be engineers etc, otherwise we have to import them from abroad.

I agree salaries are too low. We are in a 20 year low interest rate environment, usually there would be salary inflation which would a) inflate away the cost of the loan b) provide a standard of living in line with the expectations of a professional.

Some artists make loads of money, and contribute to our mainstream national culture, some make nothing and eke out a living on the fringes. Imo it should be possible to take that risk without also absorbing £50k in debt, but it currently isn't, so tough choices have to be made. It's a crap system.

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10 minutes ago, Hardhat said:

You can choose not to get a credit card.

If you want to go to uni and don't have private wealth, you can't choose not to get a student loan.

The choice then is not to go to uni. Fine for some people, a huge waste of potential for others.

...but you can choose not to go to university or get someone else to pay for it I.e modern apprenticeships...going to university is not a right, it is a choice, and one with financial implications just as with any other investment.

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Schools brainwash kids throughout the time they spend there as if uni is the only option.  That's been the case for a few generations now.  Parents and grandparents mostly push it for snobbish reasons.

Only today I heard apprenticeships being discussed where you train on the job whilst getting paid.  One of those interviewed had an apprenticeship with Google so not just plumbers etc any more.

For more practical careers such as paramedic/nurse etc the day release route has to be better than a degree if you want people who can actually do the job as @sancho panza says.

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3 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

going to university is not a right, it is a choice, and one with financial implications just as with any other investment.

Yeah I take your point here, I feel it is a net benefit to society to have a certain amount of people educated to degree level in various subjects. It's also the only route in to certain careers, which tend to be high paying (law, medicine, high level science, some engineering) and imo it would be a shame if these were (even more) closed off to the average person than they currently are.

I think the best way to sum up my thoughts on this are that currently too much debt is placed on the individual for a choice that is often a net benefit to society - and society should absorb more of the cost.

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4 minutes ago, Hardhat said:

Sure, so we could all be road sweepers. The roads would be spotless, partly because nobody would be designing the vehicles that drive on them.

Society needs some people to be road sweepers, some to be engineers etc, otherwise we have to import them from abroad.

I agree salaries are too low. We are in a 20 year low interest rate environment, usually there would be salary inflation which would a) inflate away the cost of the loan b) provide a standard of living in line with the expectations of a professional.

Some artists make loads of money, and contribute to our mainstream national culture, some make nothing and eke out a living on the fringes. Imo it should be possible to take that risk without also absorbing £50k in debt, but it currently isn't, so tough choices have to be made. It's a crap system.

Yes, in the ideal world where funding is limited, social provision I.e health/housing/education is of a gold standard, and everyone is happy to pay high rates of tax, but it doesn't exist....oh wait a moment, perhaps we are talking about Scandianavia?...because we are definitely not talking about the UK where ce leection time political allegiances balance on 1p off the tax rate!

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On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2020 at 00:43, Green Devil said:

Student loans aren't debt. They are QE. It's money the government is prepared to pay but doesn't care about

Agree. I've said this all along. Student loans are effectively money printing - direct injections of cash into the system. These will cause and are causing corresponding distortions in the economy and monetary system.

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3 hours ago, Hardhat said:

I feel it is a net benefit to society to have a certain amount of people educated to degree level in various subjects.

I agree...a lot of people believe that the only purpose of formal education is to get a job, I disagree as otherwise we would lose the cultural basis to our society I.e The Arts. Unfortunately not everyone can see the equal value between an artist, doctor or financal executive, so as a result the latter is valued (financially) the most...its a cruel world!

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Chewing Grass
1 minute ago, MrXxxx said:

I agree...a lot of people believe that the only purpose of formal education is to get a job, I disagree as otherwise we would lose the cultural basis to our society I.e The Arts. Unfortunately not everyone can see the equal value between an artist, doctor or financal executive, so as a result the latter is valued (financially) the most...its a cruel world!

Working in Engineering, the worst Engineers are those that view it as a job and have no passion in what they are doing, these are the very people who thrive in a proceduralised environment but can't problem solve or innovate themselves out of a wet paper bag.

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3 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

I agree...a lot of people believe that the only purpose of formal education is to get a job, I disagree as otherwise we would lose the cultural basis to our society I.e The Arts. Unfortunately not everyone can see the equal value between an artist, doctor or financal executive, so as a result the latter is valued (financially) the most...its a cruel world!

Hate to burst your bubble but that ship sailed at least 15 years ago.  o.O

Just now, Chewing Grass said:

Working in Engineering, the worst Engineers are those that view it as a job and have no passion in what they are doing, these are the very people who thrive in a proceduralised environment but can't problem solve or innovate themselves out of a wet paper bag.

You could apply that to any occupation. 

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@sancho panza - I didn’t want to copy your huge post, but this is with regards to the compound interest tables. 

Whilst studying you pay RPI plus 3%. Once you’ve finished studying the interest varies from RPI to RPI plus 3% depending on your income (you get charged more in interest the higher your income). So for someone who never earns enough to make a repayment then the loan amount simply increases by RPI. There’s an argument that RPI is a reasonable measure of inflation (better than CPI at least) so in real terms it’s frozen at the level of when you graduated and then gets written off at 55.

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12 minutes ago, Castlevania said:

@sancho panza - I didn’t want to copy your huge post, but this is with regards to the compound interest tables. 

Whilst studying you pay RPI plus 3%. Once you’ve finished studying the interest varies from RPI to RPI plus 3% depending on your income (you get charged more in interest the higher your income). So for someone who never earns enough to make a repayment then the loan amount simply increases by RPI. There’s an argument that RPI is a reasonable measure of inflation (better than CPI at least) so in real terms it’s frozen at the level of when you graduated and then gets written off at 55.

This got me thinking...if you earn over the threshold to start paying student loan repayments, can you port a high % of your salary into your pension so you drop below the threshold?...I assume it depends on whether its applied to gross or net salary, anyone know the answer to this?

Also, maybe if you were self-employed you could pay yourself just under the rate and plough the rest into the company...

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7 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

This got me thinking...if you earn over the threshold to start paying student loan repayments, can you port a high % of your salary into your pension so you drop below the threshold?...I assume it depends on whether its applied to gross or net salary, anyone know the answer to this?

Also, maybe if you were self-employed you could pay yourself just under the rate and plough the rest into the company...

Or move abroad after graduating.

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