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57 minutes ago, Conniption said:

I used to make my own clarified butter (ghee) till I did a cost comparison of bricks of good quality, low water content butter and decided that leaving it to the professionals was noticeably cheaper.

What you've got in the photo above must still have loads of milk protein present, since pure butter oil does not burn. So it may taste interesting but you've got no margin for error if you cook with that since it's nine-tenths of the way to breaking down completely.

Pure butter oil is clear as glass and golden yellow. Anything else, like your effort above, might taste toasty but it's not going to do your body any favours and is really only good for drizzling over potatoes or bread as a treat.

Also, you said it took you 30 mins? Mine would take two hours on a slow heat for all the milk solids to settle to the bottom so I could pour it off slowly into jars. The milk solids would not go to waste but have the water boiled off quickly, leaving brown butter solids that tasted wonderful spread on bread or used in baking.

Wow, you're covering a lot of things there and getting a lot mixed up. 

There are two things going on when you make ghee - one is water evaporation the other is protein denaturing.

When you boil off the water you destroy the micelles that keep the proteins emulsified, it doesn't really matter whether you do this bit quickly or slowly: 30 minutes or two hours doesn't matter - destroy the micelles and get the protein out of emulsion.

I like taking about 30 minutes because at that heat I can get good control over the next step, which is the protein denaturing. 

Once the protein has has separated you have a choice as to how long to cook it - you can remove it from the heat straight away, filter off the solids and you will have what you describe - a crystal clear oil, that is yellow and almost white once solidified. This is clarified butter, but it's not actually ghee. All ghee is clarified butter, but not all clarified butter is ghee.

If you continue to cook you will cook the protein (i.e. Denature it) at this point its not milk protein anymore, it will start to darken and redisperse in the oil, bringing it flavour and colour, the longer you cook the darker and more flavourful it will get. Filter off the remaining solids to leave a lovely, aromatic, dark oil and you have ghee.

The pic I posted is the darkest I've ever made, but I usually do one jar of light and one jar of dark and use whichever one goes best in the recipe. What the colour IS NOT is broken down oil, so no wafer thin margin like you mention.

I've looked at what comes in one of those tins and it's not what I would consider ghee, it's partially liquid at room temp for a start. 

The other point is there is no way ghee manufacturers are using high quality butter. So you pay your money and take your choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

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Worth mentioning this: https://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

my basic rule of thumb is to never heat any plant oil, just use them for dressing food you have already cooked. Since the cheap stuff like rape, corn and sunflower has no inherent flavour, the expensi

Some incredible stats and comparisons ,it also blows away some myths   

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1 minute ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Wow, you're covering a lot of things there and getting a lot mixed up. 

There are two things going on when you make ghee - one is water evaporation the other is protein denaturing.

When you boil off the water you destroy the micelles that keep the proteins emulsified, it doesn't really matter whether you do this bit quickly or slowly: 30 minutes or two hours doesn't matter - destroy the micelles and get the protein out of emulsion.

I like taking about 30 minutes because at that heat I can get good control over the next step, which is the protein denaturing. 

Once the protein has has separated you have a choice as to how long to cook it - you can remove it from the heat straight away, filter off the solids and you will have what you describe - a crystal clear oil, that is yellow and almost white once solidified. This is clarified butter, but it's not actually ghee. All ghee is clarified butter, but not all clarified butter is ghee.

If you continue to cook you will cook the protein (i.e. Denature it) at this point its not milk protein anymore, it will start to darken and redisperse in the oil, bringing it flavour and colour, the longer you cook the darker and more flavourful it will get. Filter off the remaining solids to leave a lovely, aromatic, dark oil and you have ghee.

The pic I posted is the darkest I've ever made, but I usually do one jar of light and one jar of dark and use whichever one goes best in the recipe. What the colour IS NOT is broken down oil, so no wafer thin margin like you mention.

I've looked at what comes in one of those tins and it's not what I would consider ghee, it's partially liquid at room temp for a start. 

The other point is there is no way ghee manufacturers are using high quality butter. So you pay your money and take your choice. 

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough.

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3 hours ago, Roger_Mellie said:

If you continue to cook you will cook the protein (i.e. Denature it) at this point its not milk protein anymore, it will start to darken and redisperse in the oil, bringing it flavour and colour, the longer you cook the darker and more flavourful it will get. 

You know this already as a chem eng, but I put it to you that denaturing means a neatly folded protein unravels, so denatured casein or whatever is still milk protein. Egg white solidifies when it is cooked because the unfolded albumin proteins can entangle, but it is still egg white. In other literature, the smoke point of oils is connected to the amount of protein present, so extra virgin olive oil, for example, has a lot of protein in it and is not good for high temperature cooking. Proteins when heated to high temperatures undergo pyrolysis which means potentially nasty smaller molecules are formed that can react in thousands of different ways, and even polymerize. Refined oils have had most of the protein removed, so these only smoke when the oil itself start to pyrolise, with the more stable oil being able to cope with higher temperatures. If your ghee is dark, then the protein in it or oil has started to pyrolise.

Edited by Nippy
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2 minutes ago, Nippy said:

You know this already as a chem eng, but I put it to you that denaturing means a neatly folded protein unravels, so denatured casein or whatever is still milk protein. Egg white solidifies when it is cooked because the unfolded albumin proteins can entangle, but it is still egg white. In other literature, the smoke point of oils is connected to the amount of protein present, so extra virgin olive oil, for example, has a lot of protein in it and is not good for high temperature cooking. Proteins when heated to high temperatures undergo pyrolysis which means potentially nasty smaller molecules are formed that can react in thousands of different ways, and even polymerize. Refined oils have had most of the protein removed, so these only smoke when the oil itself start to pyrolise, with the more stable oil being able to cope with higher temperatures. If your ghee is dark, the  in it protein or oil has started to pyrolise.

The oil hasn't started pyrolise, the temperature hasn't been high enough. 

Whether the protein has is another question. It probably has, but so what? 

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I wondered who would know about this, so I enquired of Harold McGhee. This is the gist of what he wrote in On Food and Cooking:

Most cooking oils will oxidise at room temperature, becoming rancid over weeks or months, especially if stored exposed to air and strong light. Animal fats keep better becuse they are less reactive, being mostly saturated fats, oxygen diffuses through the solid less easily. Butter is an exception since it is very stable against oxidation being mostly saturated fat and solid, but it will spoil by hydrolysation caused by its own water content. Turning it into clarified butter or ghee drives off the water, meaning the product can then last for 8 months without refrigeration. When butter is heated, gaseous water foams up whey protein on the surface, and casein particles fall to the bottom. The whey skin can be lifted off ones the foam has collapsed, and the clarified butter poured off from the casein sediment.

The smoke point is the temperature at which a fat breaks down to produce noxious gaseous products, and leave behind free fatty acids in the liquid which don't taste pleasant. The lower the initial free fatty acid content of the fat, the more thermally stable it is, and the higher the smoke point. Vegetable oils tend to have lower free fatty acid content than animal fats, and refined oils have lower free fatty acid content than unrefined ones. The smoke point of vegetable oils is about 230°C, and animal fats 190°C. Butter has a particularly low smoke point of 150°C because it contains impurities of protein and carbohydrate; if these are removed then burning doesn't occur until 200°C. The smoke point of fats and oils reduce each time they are heated because thermal breakdown is inevitable even at moderate temperatures.

Indian ghee (meaning bright in Sanskrit) is made by heating butter to 90°C to evaporate the water, then heating it to 120°C to brown the milk solids. The browning imparts a flavour to the ghee, and produces antioxidants which further improve shelf life. The ghee is filtered after this step to remove the browned milk solids, and the product is clear (sweets can be made form the residue+sugar). The butter for ghee is made by churning a yoghurt called dahi. This is cow or buffalo milk and a lactic acid bacillus. The souring of the milk improves yield and flavour of the butter.

Edited by Nippy
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7 hours ago, Nippy said:

I wondered who would know about this, so I enquired of Harold McGhee. This is the gist of what he wrote in On Food and Cooking:

Most cooking oils will oxidise at room temperature, becoming rancid over weeks or months, especially if stored exposed to air and strong light. Animal fats keep better becuse they are less reactive, being mostly saturated fats, oxygen diffuses through the solid less easily. Butter is an exception since it is very stable against oxidation being mostly saturated fat and solid, but it will spoil by hydrolysation caused by its own water content. Turning it into clarified butter or ghee drives off the water, meaning the product can then last for 8 months without refrigeration. When butter is heated, gaseous water foams up whey protein on the surface, and casein particles fall to the bottom. The whey skin can be lifted off ones the foam has collapsed, and the clarified butter poured off from the casein sediment.

The smoke point is the temperature at which a fat breaks down to produce noxious gaseous products, and leave behind free fatty acids in the liquid which don't taste pleasant. The lower the initial free fatty acid content of the fat, the more thermally stable it is, and the higher the smoke point. Vegetable oils tend to have lower free fatty acid content than animal fats, and refined oils have lower free fatty acid content than unrefined ones. The smoke point of vegetable oils is about 230°C, and animal fats 190°C. Butter has a particularly low smoke point of 150°C because it contains impurities of protein and carbohydrate; if these are removed then burning doesn't occur until 200°C. The smoke point of fats and oils reduce each time they are heated because thermal breakdown is inevitable even at moderate temperatures.

Indian ghee (meaning bright in Sanskrit) is made by heating butter to 90°C to evaporate the water, then heating it to 120°C to brown the milk solids. The browning imparts a flavour to the ghee, and produces antioxidants which further improve shelf life. The ghee is filtered after this step to remove the browned milk solids, and the product is clear (sweets can be made form the residue+sugar). The butter for ghee is made by churning a yoghurt called dahi. This is cow or buffalo milk and a lactic acid bacillus. The souring of the milk improves yield and flavour of the butter.

Oh look. What I said. It's almost like I can read a book myself and might have some vague idea what I'm talking about. :S

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4 hours ago, Roger_Mellie said:

Oh look. What I said. It's almost like I can read a book myself and might have some vague idea what I'm talking about. :S

Conniption was right that the brown colouring comes from milk protein burning, and you used incorrect terminology when you wrote that 'denatured' protein is 'not milk protein anymore'. Then you were dismissive of what she had stated, telling her wow, she was getting a lot of things mixed up! Now your dismissive of me because I dared to look in a book. Would you rather have them in Latin again?

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12 minutes ago, Nippy said:

Conniption was right that the brown colouring comes from milk protein burning, and you used incorrect terminology when you wrote that 'denatured' protein is 'not milk protein anymore'. Then you were dismissive of what she had stated, telling her wow, she was getting a lot of things mixed up! Now your dismissive of me because I dared to look in a book. Would you rather have them in Latin again?

Cooking is not burning, something going brown when you cook it is not necessarily an indication that it is burnt.

Cooking can be denaturing, but of course not all denaturing is cooking. A denatured protein is not the original protein (although the amino acid sequence is the same), denatured casein is protein derived from milk, but it is not milk protein, maybe semantics either way. Regardless, whatever is in the oil after filtering isn't milk protein.

Conniption was dismissive of me (my effort:wanker:) without knowing what she was talking about and she was getting a lot of things mixed up.

I'm not dismissive of you because you looked in a book, in fact I haven't dismissed you at all. I simply pointed out that many of us can read and some of us can read AND cook and we might have some vague knowledge of what we're talking about.

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On 21/09/2020 at 13:32, Roger_Mellie said:

Cooking is not burning, something going brown when you cook it is not necessarily an indication that it is burnt.

Cooking can be denaturing, but of course not all denaturing is cooking. A denatured protein is not the original protein (although the amino acid sequence is the same), denatured casein is protein derived from milk, but it is not milk protein, maybe semantics either way. Regardless, whatever is in the oil after filtering isn't milk protein.

Conniption was dismissive of me (my effort:wanker:) without knowing what she was talking about and she was getting a lot of things mixed up.

I'm not dismissive of you because you looked in a book, in fact I haven't dismissed you at all. I simply pointed out that many of us can read and some of us can read AND cook and we might have some vague knowledge of what we're talking about.

you have now removed the photo you first put up as an example of your expertise and no one is able to see how blackened your product was. You claim you excised the photo because it showed too much of your house though I challenge anyone to deduce your location by the colour of your kitchen worktop.

your stuff looked like 30 weight motor oil after 8 thousand miles.

 

edit: THIS is ghee:

https://swisscows.com/image?query=ghee

Edited by Conniption
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Ghee wars 3: The Revenge of Mellie

This is from one of the videos in your link. Note the colour whilst liquid and note the colour of the solids. 

https://highintensityhealth.com/ghee-recipe-making-indian-clarified-butter-w-dr-shalini-bhat/

Just looking back through my pics... 

A cropped one of the one I initially posted and a light one. As I said, I generally do one of each and use them as the recipe requires. I do A LOT of Indian cooking. 

You'll note the dark one is not blackened. At all. I would call it a deep red, the colour of a fine ale. When it solidifies its more of a light caramel colour, much like the one in the video at the link you posted. You'll also note that you can actually see through it. It's clear, with no protein residue present. Much nicer flavour than the light one, which I only use when I need something more neutral. 

IMG_20191016_220031052.jpg

IMG_20200407_215758300.jpg

Edited by Roger_Mellie
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