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Redundancy, what is wrong with this country?


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So i'm another victim of CV19, nothing new, been here before, etc etc etc. BUT what the hell is going on with recruitment and HR these days? How many times in the last few weeks have I been told i'm a

In Wales, most jobs are within public sector. Redundancies are highly coveted. Unless you enjoy a good relationship with your manager you have little chance of being selected. In fact,

Apart from professional qualifications most degrees are fairly meaningless. The main beneficiaries of our present education system are those working in our education system. Everybody should

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23 minutes ago, Snark said:

So i'm another victim of CV19, nothing new, been here before, etc etc etc. BUT what the hell is going on with recruitment and HR these days? How many times in the last few weeks have I been told i'm a "jack of all trades" (the sub text being "master of none").

 

Subtext is they have no valid reason for the redundancy.

Edited by Hopeful
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Firstly, good luck Mr Snark and as someone who has been 'retrenched' twice, you'll look back in time and realise the doors that opened were better than the one that shut.

 

The main reason is that HR is made up of people who failed at finding anything they were good at.

The second reason is that companies (and I have worked for a number of them in one way or another) love a jack of all trades as it means they can sack them when they get too expensive and replace them with someone cheaper.  If you specialise, as long as your area remains relevant to the business world (no horseshoe fitters, please), you retain value.  I am guessing you are at the age/cost where someone cheaper would be available.  Start rethinking yourself as skilled in X.

I had a conversation with a manager once, when younger, who was trying to get me to apply for a managers role in another area.  "But if you stay focused on one thing you might not have opportunities in other jobs across the company we might want to transfer you to".  Yes, that is the whole fucking point of me specialising - so I choose where I go, not a company.

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Is this trying to move within the current org?

Or interviewing for a new job?

If it's the former then, unless you are in a v big company then redeployment is a no go. Just go for as much redundo as possible.

If its the latter then avoid orgs that use HR for anything more than making coffee n sorting out travel expenses.

Skill wise, you have to stick to your sector. The trick is to make your skillset as portable as poss.

In terms if using a computer, I'd expect to be like bring able to read n write.

I say that knowing 30% of UK adults cant really read n write I.e. follow written instructions never mind write them.

I also say this as an ex school guvnor who found that 70% of teachers had the computer skills of my mother I.e zilch - how do you print?  I xsnt login? I cant do this etcetc.

This is chronic in public sector.

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1 hour ago, Snark said:



Why can I not actually be good at everything I do?
Why are we only allowed to have one single skill?
Why does being hands on in engineering mean I can't use software like MSoffice? (I mean seriously, is that really a skill? it's not even a challenge....... It feels more like office bods over-estimating their own skill level)
Why does not having a stupid piece of paper, mean that i'm a liar when I say i'm good at and skilled in XY or Z?

20+ years since I left college, i've learned a lot since then

 

I think that all the above makes an individual more resilient, confident and better placed than most people to quickly move on.

It's always the most capable that are selected too. It's true that you want to be the first out.

I've seen several redundancies and been made redundant several times. At the time of the first I felt devastated, but I realised shortly after that it was actually a springboard to better things, and so the rest I welcomed with open arms - bring it on.

On redundancies that didnit involve my departure, I've seen awful practice. One person was made redundant over another simply because they didnt have a family - HR thought the impact would be less upon them than another work colleague who had a wife and kids to support. Another person was selected over others simply because they were Johnny no mates, although a perfectly nice person they just didn't socialise at work and so it was psychologically easier to select them.  - that was the level of HR discrimination.

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15 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Subtext is they have no valid reason for the redundancy.

I was chosen for redundancy because I had work on less job types, due to being there the shortest time. Basically they looked at a list of what people had done, a skills matrix, and those with least got axed. In 4 years i'd got half the skills on that matrix which others had taken 18 years to get, but it wasn't enough. Don't even get me started on company skills matrices, I see the value as the only method for non-technical people to judge others, but they absolutely do not represent the truth.

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30 minutes ago, spunko said:

Yes I think so too. Your job may no longer exist sadly at that company.

Good luck Mr Snark do you have any plans to get back into work or will you take some time off?

I really could do either, I don't want to eat into my savings, but I could go without working for the best part 18 months. The bigger issue is my OH could find herself redundant too, but she'd find a job MUCH more easily than myself, whilst we could both easily do a simple office admin job, my engineering background would see me excluded for a) computer illiterate, and b) someone who would leave as soon as something else came along.

The other thing i've found in the past, and which is probably worse now, is that my skill level is often seen as a threat by hiring managers, if I get to an interview I usually make the point that i'm always looking to learn and progress, but in engineering rather than management.
I've done management, I think I was good at it, but I decided I didn't want it when I was being criticised for not being hard enough on my staff, when they were actually happy and doing a great job.

Edited by Snark
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I think you have quite succinctly outlined how I fell out of permanent employment and into self  employment over 2 decades ago. Looking for the first move was staggered how inflexible the move between careers / industry sectors was, so bad indeed bailed out altogether and went self employed.  I have taken the jack of all trades stance to absurd levels, had ups and downs but certainly has been interesting.

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1 minute ago, Snark said:

I was chosen for redundancy because I had work on less job types, due to being there the shortest time. Basically they looked at a list of what people had done, a skills matrix, and those with least got axed. In 4 years i'd got half the skills on that matrix which others had taken 18 years to get, but it wasn't enough. Don't even get me started on company skills matrices, I see the value as the only method for non-technical people to judge others, but they absolutely do not represent the truth.

Ahh, matrices, what a joke
 

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16 minutes ago, Snark said:

I really could do either, I don't want to eat into my savings, but I could go without working for the best part 18 months. The bigger issue is my OH could find herself redundant too, but she'd find a job MUCH more easily than myself, whilst we could both easily do a simple office admin job, my engineering background would see me excluded for a) computer illiterate, and b) someone who would leave as soon as something else came along.

 

I can do loads of stuff but I have lost all my O A level, degree and PhD certificates, should anyone want to see them. I've also got no other paper qualifications, but can do loads of stuff to beyond 'certificate level' because I've had to be able to. I'm happily unemployable. Longest spell without income between 'jobs' has been 14 months, although I've always found ways to earn bits of cash. Now self-employed and I don't have an 'income', just sufficient money seems to arrive sporadically to save me from disaster in the nick of time.

Edited by Hopeful
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4 minutes ago, onlyme said:

I think you have quite succinctly outlined how I fell out of permanent employment and into self  employment over 2 decades ago. Looking for the first move was staggered how inflexible the move between careers / industry sectors was, so bad indeed bailed out altogether and went self employed.  I have taken the jack of all trades stance to absurd levels, had ups and downs but certainly has been interesting.

I tried self-employed after redundancy back in 2008, but lack of contacts and sales ability (i'm too honest) meant I couldn't get anywhere, I ran an IT business, couldn't get clients because nobody trusts you if you don't have big neon lights and a huge marketing budget.

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

Expert in Windows

Expert in Word

Expert in PowerPoint

Expert in Internet Explorer

Beginner in C# programming (watched a YouTube video of a nice Indian chap)

 

80% suitability for programmer role. HIRED.

I'm good in Access as well 😊

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6 minutes ago, Snark said:

I really could do either, I don't want to eat into my savings, but I could go without working for the best part 18 months. The bigger issue is my OH could find herself redundant too, but she'd find a job MUCH more easily than myself, whilst we could both easily do a simple office admin job, my engineering background would see me excluded for a) computer illiterate, and b) someone who would leave as soon as something else came along.

The other thing i've found in the past, and which is probably worse now, is that my skill level is often seen as a threat by hiring managers, if I get to an interview I usually make the point that i'm always looking to learn and progress, but in engineering rather than management.

On the plus side I would be looking to take advantage of the current interest in WFH to see what opportunities there are around. Places that are expensive/difficult to work at will be looking for skills and there may be more options for contract / remote / ad hoc work going on. As already self employed I've certainly looked at the current scenario as something that could open up the jobs / work market for me in ways could not have imagined 12 months ago.  I think one of the main issues with permanent employment is the process is expensive in the short and medium term for the employer and in their desperate attempt to fit a round peg in a round hole they have missed the point but ticked the box and believe it is saving themselves money by not having to hire and fire a more risky placement. Looser terms, contract, remote working could come with a lot less onerous  up front costs open the situation up a bit and those that are flexible and can think on their feet will benefit. The flip side is that employers might think that with a larger pool to choose from they can be even more specific in their requirements list.

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Best of luck. Mrs S was made redundant twice in the early 90's and finally when she secured a superb job in another company it went into administration. If you keep plugging away and you have skills it ought to come good* ( but see note below).

I worked in a large consultancy in the mid 90's for 9 months and was described by the Quality Assurance Manager as being someone who was "an island in a sea of QA". I had dared to suggest that some of the forms I was being asked to fill out were superfluous and a total waste of people's time. I knew my days were numbered and got out fast. Move forward 10 years from there and I'd set up a business with my wife. Best decision ever. If you can manage to get into self employment*, go for it.

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46 minutes ago, Snark said:

I feel like this bleeds into modern political left wing nonsense

Something's going on, but I've not read anything that has put the proverbial finger on it.

I offer it up for discussion that it is a form of 'clientelism'. The promise used to be in the 1950s that we'd have more leisure time in the future, and perhaps we'd not need to work at all. Instead,  non-jobs have been created all over the place. The only way to create a non-job is by introducing legislation that mandates that non-tasks be performed. Because almost anybody with a high boredom threshold can do a non-job, paper certificates were made a requirement to do them to justify the often significant salaries (someone on here called it 'Pay to play'). This has been expanded outwards, by the non-workers, to the productive workers so they are expected to have a piece of paper, too.   The bottom line is that, if you were fighting on the battlefield, you all know who would choose to be alongside you, and it wouldn't be someone waving a piece of paper with his list of corporate training or his MBA certificate.

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5 minutes ago, Snark said:

I tried self-employed after redundancy back in 2008, but lack of contacts and sales ability (i'm too honest) meant I couldn't get anywhere, I ran an IT business, couldn't get clients because nobody trusts you if you don't have big neon lights and a huge marketing budget.

Its a bitch isn't it.

You definitely have to lie a little to get anywhere, those that are honest are usually conscientious as well so would not put themselves forward to do something unless they were confident in their ability to do it and make damn sure that the result was a success.

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17 minutes ago, Snark said:

I really could do either, I don't want to eat into my savings, but I could go without working for the best part 18 months. The bigger issue is my OH could find herself redundant too, but she'd find a job MUCH more easily than myself, whilst we could both easily do a simple office admin job, my engineering background would see me excluded for a) computer illiterate, and b) someone who would leave as soon as something else came along.

The other thing i've found in the past, and which is probably worse now, is that my skill level is often seen as a threat by hiring managers, if I get to an interview I usually make the point that i'm always looking to learn and progress, but in engineering rather than management.
I've done management, I think I was good at it, but I decided I didn't want it when I was being criticised for not being hard enough on my staff, when they were actually happy and doing a great job.

I cant of any skilled job in the private sector that doesn't involve using a computer a lot.

Wheres this compoter illiterate thing coming from and why?

 

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3 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

Best of luck. Mrs S was made redundant twice in the early 90's and finally when she secured a superb job in another company it went into administration. If you keep plugging away and you have skills it ought to come good* ( but see note below).

I worked in a large consultancy in the mid 90's for 9 months and was described by the Quality Assurance Manager as being someone who was "an island in a sea of QA". I had dared to suggest that some of the forms I was being asked to fill out were superfluous and a total waste of people's time. I knew my days were numbered and got out fast. Move forward 10 years from there and I'd set up a business with my wife. Best decision ever. If you can manage to get into self employment*, go for it.

The whole 90s 00s QA thing I found confusing.

You want to nail the processes n metrics for any product or process - it makes sense. You want Quality at the core of work - it makes business easy.

However tye white QA iso 9000 wank made a lot of QA the realm of the redundant manager, booted out  of an org and now self employed.

.

 

 

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This isn't probably appropriate, but the first redundancy excepted, my second 2 redundancies were an absolute blast. I knew they were coming as soon as the redundancy situations were mooted, and I knew I would expose so much in management during appeal that I pissed myself laughing both at the thought and throughout the process. That sounds big headed, but this thread has just made me smile that I'm no longer in that world but the people I left behind still are.

Good luck @Snark, you sound the perfect person to do OK.

Edited by Hopeful
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32 minutes ago, Snark said:

I was chosen for redundancy because I had work on less job types, due to being there the shortest time. Basically they looked at a list of what people had done, a skills matrix, and those with least got axed. In 4 years i'd got half the skills on that matrix which others had taken 18 years to get, but it wasn't enough. Don't even get me started on company skills matrices, I see the value as the only method for non-technical people to judge others, but they absolutely do not represent the truth.

Last in, first out.

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Its a bit like the old maxim of 'nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'. HR are covering their backs by insisting on paper qualifications. If they hire someone without a degree and they are a disaster then the onus is on them, if they hire someone with all the right paper qualifications and they are a disaster they can at least argue they did due diligence. It is very lazy and it sucks. The only exception to this I have seen is people who are so specialist that their skills and previous experience override the need for a degree. 

Edited by hapax legomenon
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12 minutes ago, onlyme said:

On the plus side I would be looking to take advantage of the current interest in WFH to see what opportunities there are around. Places that are expensive/difficult to work at will be looking for skills and there may be more options for contract / remote / ad hoc work going on. As already self employed I've certainly looked at the current scenario as something that could open up the jobs / work market for me in ways could not have imagined 12 months ago.  I think one of the main issues with permanent employment is the process is expensive in the short and medium term for the employer and in their desperate attempt to fit a round peg in a round hole they have missed the point but ticked the box and believe it is saving themselves money by not having to hire and fire a more risky placement. Looser terms, contract, remote working could come with a lot less onerous  up front costs open the situation up a bit and those that are flexible and can think on their feet will benefit. The flip side is that employers might think that with a larger pool to choose from they can be even more specific in their requirements list.

Youd hope an org would be pretty specific in their requirements.

I hate vague job descriptions.

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