Jump to content
DOSBODS
  • Welcome to DOSBODS

     

    DOSBODS is free of any advertising.

    Ads are annoying, and - increasingly - advertising companies limit free speech online. DOSBODS Forums are completely free to use. Please create a free account to be able to access all the features of the DOSBODS community. It only takes 20 seconds!

     

Detroit:a lesson in urban degeneration for UK councils


Recommended Posts

I look at the central reasons of Detroit's declines-US jobs lost to global competitors, govt overspending-leading to bankruptcy 2013,poor race relations historically,middle class flight begetting middle class flight and more financial decline.It's gone from a population of near 2million,now 800,000.Houses rents for $450 to $650 per month.In the third video,you can see areas two miles from downtown Detroit where the Mayor has cleared derelict houses creating acres of space(literally).It's surreal to see the space-comes at about 5 mins 30.

Then I look at Leicester-biggest employers are the 3 Hospitals,2 Universities and 1 council.Gone are tens of thousands of manfucaturing jobs in hosiery/engineering plants that existed when I was a kid growing up in the 80's.A lot of the workers in thsoe Govt jobs don't live in the city.

There's only one thing between Leicester and urban degeneration and that's govt spending.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

This seems relevant: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-8710575/New-property-investment-aims-help-house-homeless-deliver-7-5-return.html

Government money (i.e. bennies) paid to investors to keep a roof over the head of the homeless. What's not to like? In all seriousness as these "solar farms" have proved, government money is as safe as houses. I suspect it'll be really popular with the Kuwaiti / Saudi crowd, just like "solar farms".

 

On the topic of Detroit, worth pointing out that some of the suburbs are pretty salubrious - even now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Woods

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, sancho panza said:

I look at the central reasons of Detroit's declines-US jobs lost to global competitors, govt overspending-leading to bankruptcy 2013,poor race relations historically,middle class flight begetting middle class flight and more financial decline.It's gone from a population of near 2million,now 800,000.Houses rents for $450 to $650 per month.In the third video,you can see areas two miles from downtown Detroit where the Mayor has cleared derelict houses creating acres of space(literally). It's surreal to see the space-comes at about 5 mins 30.

Then I look at Leicester-biggest employers are the 3 Hospitals,2 Universities and 1 council.Gone are tens of thousands of manufacturing jobs in hosiery/engineering plants that existed when I was a kid growing up in the 80's.A lot of the workers in those Govt jobs don't live in the city.

There's only one thing between Leicester and urban degeneration and that's govt spending.

I think it's slightly depressing that my gut reaction on watching the last video was: "glazing issues aside, that looks really nice; like the aspiration bits of North Bedfordshire, but with much bigger houses and nicer weather." 

UK housing was always pretty rubbish compared to the US, but the comparison is getting ludicrous if I'm now dreaming of living in the black suburbs of Detroit.

By the way, doesn't Leicester have Pepsico, or is that an insignificant employer compared to the state enterprises?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, BurntBread said:

I think it's slightly depressing that my gut reaction on watching the last video was: "glazing issues aside, that looks really nice; like the aspiration bits of North Bedfordshire, but with much bigger houses and nicer weather." 

UK housing was always pretty rubbish compared to the US, but the comparison is getting ludicrous if I'm now dreaming of living in the black suburbs of Detroit.

By the way, doesn't Leicester have Pepsico, or is that an insignificant employer compared to the state enterprises?

I agree that the pictures of Detroit look inviting and I'd assume the people left are happy but what that video doesn't show is the the 20 years of transition and degradation.Zero Hedge had a good piece on it.Pictures taken of the same spots a few years apart

The Pepsi site(Walker's crisps) employs about a 1300 people (I'm not sure if that includes the 300 at their R&D site) but that probably makes them the biggest private employer in the city.

In 2014 the city  council had 14,300 employees,can't imagine it's much different now.THat includes 7000 at the schools.

15,000 staff across three hospitals-probabaly more if you add on auxiliary services provided by private companies eg cleaning

4000 at Leicester uni but that wont include cleaners/security etc

Leicester has a population of 330,000.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, spygirl said:

Dog wags tail not tail wags dog.

Urban areas get rich when lots of people earn lots of money not because council spend money.

Councils trying to regenerate post wealth areas is an massive economic comb-over.

LA depending needs gutting if revenue does not recover in less than 5 years.

 

 

I think some cities will decline more quickly.Leicester is very post industrial(like a lot of Northern towns),but it's on the mainline to Londinium,so might benefit from the huge numbers that will be fleeing that now that they only have to do a day a week at the office,want to swap a £500k one bed flat for a 4 bed detached and rasie their kids in a less kinetic future warzone.

I think London is on the verge of an epic collapse now that proximity to it is less of an issue going forward.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, sancho panza said:

 

I agree that the pictures of Detroit look inviting and I'd assume the people left are happy but what that video doesn't show is the the 20 years of transition and degradation.Zero Hedge had a good piece on it.Pictures taken of the same spots a few years apart

The Pepsi site(Walker's crisps) employs about a 1300 people (I'm not sure if that includes the 300 at their R&D site) but that probably makes them the biggest private employer in the city.

In 2014 the city  council had 14,300 employees,can't imagine it's much different now.THat includes 7000 at the schools.

15,000 staff across three hospitals-probabaly more if you add on auxiliary services provided by private companies eg cleaning

4000 at Leicester uni but that wont include cleaners/security etc

Leicester has a population of 330,000.

 

Next’s Head Office and distribution I would think is the largest headcount in any one place I can think of there.

I don’t presently foresee the job losses being as bad as what went with textile/hosiery/garment manufacturing. Between 1975 and the turn of the century about 200,000 jobs went across the East Midlands. Firms like Corah and Courtaulds were absolutely huge.

Edited by SNACR
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, SNACR said:

Next’s Head Office and distribution I would think is the largest headcount in any one place I can think of there.

I don’t presently foresee the job losses being as bad as what went with textile/hosiery/garment manufacturing. Between 1975 and the turn of the century about 200,000 jobs went across the East Midlands. Firms like Corah and Courtaulds were absolutely huge.

Absolutely,it was structural unemployment.There were other big factories eg Bentley's knitting machines(I've worked on some as a kid that were nearly 40 years old and still making socks)/Richards Foundry/Woodall's Carpentry machines/Singer typewirter iirc/and a load of other big knitwear places.These places employed 1000's directly and then many more in support manufacturing of parts.

Next Plc is sited in Blaby District a couple of miles from the city,but it is a big employer.

As above and below,the problem is that we're now relaint on govt handouts more than ever.

Given the census date appears to be 27 march 2011,then 30,000 students appear as living here which might explain teh young average age

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_United_Kingdom_census

https://www.ilivehere.co.uk/statistics-leicester-city-of-leicester-21823.html

image.png.7b66da14152f5686ee4dd809d8788c20.png

image.png.78420a769d769ce98c3f4f187465cc00.png

image.png.35c608f4c688ecb72ae6a16708653357.png

image.png.6003a8839be3dc6dac24a9afe1109f80.png

image.png.49f8511f333102eb6bf521d8c1fa2218.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/09/2020 at 00:13, sancho panza said:

I think some cities will decline more quickly.Leicester is very post industrial(like a lot of Northern towns),but it's on the mainline to Londinium,so might benefit from the huge numbers that will be fleeing that now that they only have to do a day a week at the office,want to swap a £500k one bed flat for a 4 bed detached and rasie their kids in a less kinetic future warzone.

I think London is on the verge of an epic collapse now that proximity to it is less of an issue going forward.

I used to work in London with a guy who lived in Leicester. He worked from home on Monday and Friday. Travelled down Tuesday morning; travelled back on the Thursday evening. Stayed with a friend those two nights. He was from Leicester and his family was all there, but the trade off was as you say a big house and a better quality of life for his family for less than a one bed in London.

There was also a chap from Preston who did the same thing. He stayed in a dorm room in a backpackers hostel though. Although the trade off was it was little more than a 10 minute walk to the office.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Castlevania said:

I used to work in London with a guy who lived in Leicester. He worked from home on Monday and Friday. Travelled down Tuesday morning; travelled back on the Thursday evening. Stayed with a friend those two nights. He was from Leicester and his family was all there, but the trade off was as you say a big house and a better quality of life for his family for less than a one bed in London.

There was also a chap from Preston who did the same thing. He stayed in a dorm room in a backpackers hostel though. Although the trade off was it was little more than a 10 minute walk to the office.

I worked with someone who slept on an air bed in the office 1 night, BnB the other. Then worked from home 2 days.

His choices were a 6h commute. Or move his family to a shit hole.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, spygirl said:

I worked with someone who slept on an air bed in the office 1 night, BnB the other. Then worked from home 2 days.

His choices were a 6h commute. Or move his family to a shit hole.

Can you imagine how depressing that must be long term.  What a completely broken society that someone has to put up with that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, One percent said:

Can you imagine how depressing that must be long term.  What a completely broken society that someone has to put up with that. 

Much much less depressing than living anywhere near the office.

His family lived in Brighton- before SJW n crusties.

He had a well paying job an 2 nights socialising..

I'm up for a few nights week week in some craphole on a high day rate.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, spygirl said:

Much much less depressing than living anywhere near the office.

His family lived in Brighton- before SJW n crusties.

He had a well paying job an 2 nights socialising..

I'm up for a few nights week week in some craphole on a high day rate.

Much rather earn less and sleep in my own bed. Maybe I’m just not that adventurous. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/09/2020 at 11:56, spunko said:

 

 

On the topic of Detroit, worth pointing out that some of the suburbs are pretty salubrious - even now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmer_Woods

Indeed. In some ways the 'decline' of Detroit is misleading. While the city municipal area has lost 75% of its population, The city area as a whole is still at roughly its high water mark population wise....still well north of 5 million...its just that the suburbs have been pushed further out, something that given land restrictions can't really happen in the UK. The cause of this was the forced integration of schools in Detroit/forced bussing. White families remained in the Detroit area, but beyond the social engineering grasps of the integrationists in the city government, relocating to neighbouring counties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Metro_Detroit

Nearly 6 million residents and, as of 2010, over 70% white.

 

Similar falls in white populations in 'city proper' areas have probably been recorded in places like LA or Dallas, but offset by Mexican immigration, which I beieve has been minimal in Michigan. 

Windsor ontario, across the river, after all, is as dependent on car manufacture as Detroit, but is the safest large city in Canada - only difference is that instead of being 90% african its 10% african.

 

 

 

 

 

Its all racial in that sense. I think the only 'rust belt' city that hasnt lost the majority of its population since the 1950s (and its still lost a lot) is Pittsburgh, which is the only large rust belt city that is  majority white.

 

Something I notice about london age demographics too. White people will tolerate diversity if the money is good enough, but when they have kids, they get the hell out of there and get their kids into a largely white school. ie London being still over 40% white British, but london schools only 20%

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/09/2020 at 20:41, Cosmic Apple said:

Summery of pretty much every comment out of the black guy they were interviewing: Its whiteys fault. Whitey bad. We victims.

 

The entire video was anti-white, could only watch 7 mins of the shite. No wonder there's a generation of brainless 20 year olds who hate whites in the US if they have that shite forced down their throats.

Hmm I wonder ((( who ))) owns NBC... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_L._Roberts

Quote

Roberts was born into a Jewish family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Every. Single. Time.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/09/2020 at 20:32, One percent said:

Can you imagine how depressing that must be long term.  What a completely broken society that someone has to put up with that. 

Effectively no suitable jobs for lots of people outside of London. Lose one of those that there are and you have to seek work in London.

Solution -  import lots of people who can't do the jobs that aren't there outside of London.

I dare say the bankers will be happy with that.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/09/2020 at 23:13, sancho panza said:

I think some cities will decline more quickly.Leicester is very post industrial(like a lot of Northern towns),but it's on the mainline to Londinium,so might benefit from the huge numbers that will be fleeing that now that they only have to do a day a week at the office,want to swap a £500k one bed flat for a 4 bed detached and rasie their kids in a less kinetic future warzone.

I think London is on the verge of an epic collapse now that proximity to it is less of an issue going forward.

I'm back to our Camden office on a fortnightly basis and it's dust and tumbleweed on Camden High Street today, save for a bunch of construction workers restoring a nearby listed building after a fire. My train was 1/3rd full at most, a peculiar view compared to the typical sardinnes-in-a-can experience. Spoke to my director this morning who said we'll be hiring soon in our department and we'll be casting our net nation-wide, as our fortnightly or weekly-at-most office schedule is there to stay for the foreseeable future and should allow us to recruit people from any part of England, as opposed to only looking around London like we used to. He admitted that savings on office space and the ability to offer local rates to people working remotely is not to be overlooked.

It's just one department in one company, but London might be in for some rough times. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/09/2020 at 21:42, PatronizingGit said:

Something I notice about london age demographics too. White people will tolerate diversity if the money is good enough, but when they have kids, they get the hell out of there and get their kids into a largely white school. ie London being still over 40% white British, but london schools only 20%

I found 28% in the report from 2016 but it's still a shocking stat.
 

https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/final_epi_edits_design_final_gla_annual_report_2017_0.pdf


It looks a little bit silly when they label it as 72% of primary pupils coming form "minority ethnic backgorunds". Does it mean that 28% form a majority? I hope that's not the kind of maths they teach those kids at school!

Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, kibuc said:

I'm back to our Camden office on a fortnightly basis and it's dust and tumbleweed on Camden High Street today, save for a bunch of construction workers restoring a nearby listed building after a fire. My train was 1/3rd full at most, a peculiar view compared to the typical sardinnes-in-a-can experience. Spoke to my director this morning who said we'll be hiring soon in our department and we'll be casting our net nation-wide, as our fortnightly or weekly-at-most office schedule is there to stay for the foreseeable future and should allow us to recruit people from any part of England, as opposed to only looking around London like we used to. He admitted that savings on office space and the ability to offer local rates to people working remotely is not to be overlooked.

It's just one department in one company, but London might be in for some rough times. 

I think the aspect of your statement I would find very chilling if I were a LL of any sort in London is that in bold.The commerical case for decamping to the regions is compelling.It might even reduce staff turnover as well.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, sancho panza said:

I think the aspect of your statement I would find very chilling if I were a LL of any sort in London is that in bold.The commerical case for decamping to the regions is compelling.It might even reduce staff turnover as well.

In terms of office space, we used to occupy 5 floors of this 7-storey building. Even though we'll be increasing our headcount, we're letting the lease on one of those floors run out in October and we're actively trying to terminate another one, so reducing our office space roughly by 1/3rd (not 40% as you might expect due to varying layouts between floors).

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/09/2020 at 11:48, sancho panza said:

Absolutely,it was structural unemployment.There were other big factories eg Bentley's knitting machines(I've worked on some as a kid that were nearly 40 years old and still making socks)/Richards Foundry/Woodall's Carpentry machines/Singer typewirter iirc/and a load of other big knitwear places.These places employed 1000's directly and then many more in support manufacturing of parts.

 

image.png.7b66da14152f5686ee4dd809d8788c20.png

image.png.78420a769d769ce98c3f4f187465cc00.png

image.png.35c608f4c688ecb72ae6a16708653357.png

image.png.6003a8839be3dc6dac24a9afe1109f80.pngimage.png.49f8511f333102eb6bf521d8c1fa2218.png

Our sat-nav took us on a route through Leicester a year or so ago. We drove through at school leaving time, about 15:00 -16:00 ish. It was very noticeable that most of the children in the suburb we drove through were of asian ethnicity, Indian, Pakistani, mostly. From what we noticed a large number were wearing Sikh turbans.

Obviously the major employers in the textile industries would have encouraged their arrival in the mid 20th century. The attraction for the employers was lower wages for their workforce and for the new arrivals a better standard of living and quality of life compared to their homelands.

As it turned out global competition decimated the textile industry in the UK and light industry support for textile production disappeared alongside. There seems to be a resurgence of garment manufacturing in the city now. Sweat shops, from recent publicity, with low wages and poor working conditions.

Which was the chicken and which was the egg. The immigration of people from the Indian sub-continent or the globalisation of garment manufacturing. The Italian fashion industry has survived better than our fashion industry despite the UK having great kudos for its innovative fashion setting trends.

Regardless we are now subjected to a population set who have different cultural values to indigenous Britains. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...