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One percent

Student loans: the gift the just keeps giving for government and their loan sharks

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I'm actually all in favour of incresing tuition fees and the especially the compounded interest rate, the way they carried on post-referendum and going along with the Marxist brainwashing and SJW crap means its all incredibly fitting IMPO. 

These people are adults they have made their choice, most of them are currently online trying to lose Alt-Right members their jobs by "Doxxing"* them.

*Doxxing: Exposing someones identity online to garner support for a hate campaign and contacting their employers in the hope of losing them their jobs because you don't agree with their political views.

Edited by WorkingPoor

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Just now, WorkingPoor said:

I'm actually all in favour of incresing tuition fees and the especially the compounded interest rate, the way they carried on post-referendum and going along with the Marxist brainwashing and SJW crap means its all incredibly fitting IMPO. 

These people are adults they have made their choice. 

I get what you say WP, but decent jobs are graduate entry these days. If young people don't do it, they are destined for dead end, minimum wage, zero hour contracts. The young really are screwed whatever n

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11 minutes ago, Bakez said:

Its never going to get paid back, ever

What he said.

There was a student on Radio 4 discussing this today. He was coming out with around 40k's worth of debt. 

He said he wasn't too worried as there was simply no way it was going to get paid back. That seems to be the consensus all round to be honest.

40 grand on the hook at the age of 20-odd? 

No thanks.

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4 minutes ago, One percent said:

I get what you say WP, but decent jobs are graduate entry these days. If young people don't do it, they are destined for dead end, minimum wage, zero hour contracts. The young really are screwed whatever n

Well they should show some initiative and collective drive and channel their energies into large scale countrywide peaceful protest.

They could start by all refusing to pay the rent on their student flats thus hitting the boomer BTL crowd

But they won't.

They're more interested in exposing "Racists" 

Edited by WorkingPoor

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1 minute ago, WorkingPoor said:

 

Well they should show some initiative and collective drive and channel their energies into large scale countrywide peaceful protest.

They could start by all refusing to pay the rent on their student flats thus hitting the boomer BTL crowd

But they won't.

They're more interested in exposing "Racists" 

Well mine aren't. At 18/21, I'm not convinced that they have the experience to challenge. It's limited choices.  Do this, or do,that....  

im sure there is a massive miss-selling on the horizon.  If adults can claim for   PPI, I'm sure 17/18 year olds can claim for this. 

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It would be better if the deal was just to take a loan on day 1 of 30 grand, use the money to buy the certificate and then immediately starting looking for a 'graduate' job

Cos that is all they are doing, except they waste 3-4 years in between.

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If a student fails to servuce tgeir debt the burden falls onto the Uni which provided the degree and debt burden.

At the mo we have people like Bolton Unis VC claiming the Unis are private orgs and pay is nothi g to do with ukgov.

https://www.ft.com/content/9c1245ae-7518-11e7-a3e8-60495fe6ca71

In which case the unis need to fund the tution fees and collect the money themselves.

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Two bits I don't like:

  • The people who pay most (over the whole 30 year term) are those on £35k-£50k or so.  Those earning more pay less (as they pay back before the 30 year term), those earning less pay less (as they're not far enough over the threshold so at 30 years the substantial remaining debt is forgiven).  See, to me, those teachers, nurses, engineers, etc, they're the ones I actually want taking the degrees.  The ones that take something useless and spend their lifetime earning £21k, I'm not so keen on them.  Same (strangely) for those mega earners in the city etc.  I find it extremely uncomfortable that the ones I need to have in HE pay the most.
  • What is the interest actually for?  Most people would say that interest paid on a loan (above inflation) is to cover the risk of default.  But the default condition is intrinsically covered in the terms -- if you don't earn enough then you're fine.  The thing is, it isn't like a mortgage, where you're not that sure who'll be made redundant, who'll mess up their lives, etc -- so everyone has to pay that little extra risk --  and those that obviously are higher risk (say, who have a history of default) have to pay a higher rate of interest.  (I suppose part of the interest rate is also to pay for the running costs of the loan -- but this will be a fraction of a %.)  So what does the interest actually do for student loans?  You could probably tell who'll likely be earning £35k, £70k, £25k when they're taking the degree.  I It looks to me like they're purposely getting the obviously lower risk groups to pay for the higher risk groups.  This is backwards.  I suppose student loans are fine, but make it zero-cost -- it should be .25% over inflation, not this usurious rate.

My thoughts -- keep the fees and loans, but have a system of identifying the future needs of the country and offer high value bursaries in those subjects that meet these needs..  No mucking about -- make a fight for it, best candidates get the bursary.  No means testing, no quotas.  If you want to take a degree in engineering/ancient-history/medicine but you're not one of the selected ones -- fine, you've just got to pay (but you might want to consider if it is right for you).  Oh, and if you've taken a degree in x but decide to do something else then you'e got to pay it back* -- I don't want to be subsidising physicists to train only for them to become quants.  I'd also get them to pay it back if they left the country**, but that's probably a bit more contentious.

[I don't really like the gov being in charge of such things, but it would be a much better/fairer system than we've got now.]

[* dunno how I'd police this, but this sort of thing is rife -- it makes the whole idea of higher education just a lifestyle experience thing -- and I'm not happy about being the one to fund it.  Happy to fund my retirement by investing in the future health of the economy, though]

[**It is absolutely a selfish policy.  I want to invest so that people will be there to pay tax when I retire.  I don't want to pay to train people up only for them to be paying for people in other countries when I retire***]

[*** Okay,  I'm happy for people to come from overseas to work in the UK and pay taxes when I retire.  But this is a specific policy for a specific reason.  Anyone would be free to take HE if they want, and not have these conditions to meet -- except that they won't qualify for the bursary].

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20 minutes ago, Sgt Hartman said:

What he said.

There was a student on Radio 4 discussing this today. He was coming out with around 40k's worth of debt. 

He said he wasn't too worried as there was simply no way it was going to get paid back. That seems to be the consensus all round to be honest.

40 grand on the hook at the age of 20-odd? 

No thanks.

Jobs being advertised requiring degrees to work at Chester Zoo, working in the tropical house as a keeper demands a degree in zoological science and 'the salary for this position is £17,367.09 full time based on 40 hours'

Now that is why you will never pay the degree off...

You are not expected to...

FFS a job paying this should surely require nothing more than enthusiasm and on the job supervised training.

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2 minutes ago, dgul said:

Two bits I don't like:

  • The people who pay most (over the whole 30 year term) are those on £35k-£50k or so.  Those earning more pay less (as they pay back before the 30 year term), those earning less pay less (as they're not far enough over the threshold so at 30 years the substantial remaining debt is forgiven).  See, to me, those teachers, nurses, engineers, etc, they're the ones I actually want taking the degrees.  The ones that take something useless and spend their lifetime earning £21k, I'm not so keen on them.  Same (strangely) for those mega earners in the city etc.  I find it extremely uncomfortable that the ones I need to have in HE pay the most.
  • What is the interest actually for?  Most people would say that interest paid on a loan (above inflation) is to cover the risk of default.  But the default condition is intrinsically covered in the terms -- if you don't earn enough then you're fine.  The thing is, it isn't like a mortgage, where you're not that sure who'll be made redundant, who'll mess up their lives, etc -- so everyone has to pay that little extra risk --  and those that obviously are higher risk (say, who have a history of default) have to pay a higher rate of interest.  (I suppose part of the interest rate is also to pay for the running costs of the loan -- but this will be a fraction of a %.)  So what does the interest actually do for student loans?  You could probably tell who'll likely be earning £35k, £70k, £25k when they're taking the degree.  I It looks to me like they're purposely getting the obviously lower risk groups to pay for the higher risk groups.  This is backwards.  I suppose student loans are fine, but make it zero-cost -- it should be .25% over inflation, not this usurious rate.

My thoughts -- keep the fees and loans, but have a system of identifying the future needs of the country and offer high value bursaries in those subjects that meet these needs..  No mucking about -- make a fight for it, best candidates get the bursary.  No means testing, no quotas.  If you want to take a degree in engineering/ancient-history/medicine but you're not one of the selected ones -- fine, you've just got to pay (but you might want to consider if it is right for you).  Oh, and if you've taken a degree in x but decide to do something else then you'e got to pay it back* -- I don't want to be subsidising physicists to train only for them to become quants.  I'd also get them to pay it back if they left the country**, but that's probably a bit more contentious.

[I don't really like the gov being in charge of such things, but it would be a much better/fairer system than we've got now.]

[* dunno how I'd police this, but this sort of thing is rife -- it makes the whole idea of higher education just a lifestyle experience thing -- and I'm not happy about being the one to fund it.  Happy to fund my retirement by investing in the future health of the economy, though]

[**It is absolutely a selfish policy.  I want to invest so that people will be there to pay tax when I retire.  I don't want to pay to train people up only for them to be paying for people in other countries when I retire***]

[*** Okay,  I'm happy for people to come from overseas to work in the UK and pay taxes when I retire.  But this is a specific policy for a specific reason.  Anyone would be free to take HE if they want, and not have these conditions to meet -- except that they won't qualify for the bursary].

Outstanding post. :)

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1 minute ago, Inoperational Bumblebee said:

Absolutely - it almost seems like a punishment! If these people are supposedly benefiting the UK, then why not just set it at RPI so they supposedly pay back the equivalent of what they borrowed?

What I really can't get my head around is that the establishment will do this to young people who want to better themselves and will by and large be an asset to society. At the same time they throw lots of money at the useless, feckless and gimmigrants. 

Its inverse and bordering on madness imho. 

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When they first introduced these new loan repayment rates I said on ToS that it was effectively a 9% graduate tax on any graduate basic rate tax payers. 

Based on about £40k of debt and interest of RPI + 3% it required a salary straight out of uni of something like £40k+ just to pay the interest. 

I said it'll be a boon for housewives (or husbands) and those approaching retirement (as it gets written off at some generic age) to get a free education with no requirement to pay it back. 

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I'm not a fan of human rights but, if you're going to have them, I think making it impossible for student loans to be escaped through bankruptcy is probably a breach of them.

Edited by SNACR

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11 minutes ago, SNACR said:

I'm not a fan of human rights but, if you're going to have them, I think making it impossible for student loans to be escaped through bankruptcy is probably a breach of them.

Yes you are.:o

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7 hours ago, One percent said:

What I really can't get my head around is that the establishment will do this to young people who want to better themselves and will by and large be an asset to society. At the same time they throw lots of money at the useless, feckless and gimmigrants. 

Its inverse and bordering on madness imho. 

This part of the puzzle I don't understand, all the money spent on the feckless and immigrants, yet the future assets of our society are screwed over, and as someone up thread identified the real assets, teachers, engineers, nurses, doctors etc  who will go on to earn 35-70K really get screwed over as they pay more compared to the ones that earn 20k or the ones that go on to earn 150K. It is an insane move by the establishment.

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11 minutes ago, Talking Monkey said:

This part of the puzzle I don't understand, all the money spent on the feckless and immigrants, yet the future assets of our society are screwed over, and as someone up thread identified the real assets, teachers, engineers, nurses, doctors etc  who will go on to earn 35-70K really get screwed over as they pay more compared to the ones that earn 20k or the ones that go on to earn 150K. It is an insane move by the establishment.

It's always a mistake to assume the goals of those in power align with the rest of society. I don't think it's a mystery why the education system doesn't churn out go-getting critical thinkers, from all social backgrounds, it would be TPTB's worst nightmare. 

Edited by SNACR

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1 hour ago, JoeDavola said:

You are owned by the government, and owned by the banks.

If you dedicate a few years of your youth (some would argue the best years of your life) to slaving away to prove yourself worthy enough to get a 'decent' job (I'm assuming a STEM degree), you are put in massive debt for it before you begin.

Lets say you then spend another 5/10 years post-graduation getting to a point where you earn 40K in the average job that's out there.

You now have to:

- pay tax on what you earn

- pay off a never ending student loan debt

- spend most of your life renting from the bank via a huge never-ending mortgage....

- ...oh and we'll tax you via Stamp Duty when you go and buy that house. Yes, you're being taxed for the privilege of entering into 30 plus years of debt slavery.

- any money left after paying all the above? Good we'll need some of that for Council Tax.

- if you and another worker drone have the audacity to want to procreate, you'll both have to play the above game and pay further 'child minding tax' to a creche to look after your children. You see you likely can't afford to have one of you to stay at home to look after the kids, but even if by some miracle you could your wife has been brainwashed into believing that staying at home with your kids for the benefit of their family is oppression and that a lifetime of office work stress and tax paying for the benefit of the government and her employer is empowerment. 

- if you're in any way ambitious and want to strive to earn much more than that 40-ish mark, we'll be taking half of that amount by the way before you see it. As tax. Call it the Ambition Tax. You're welcome.

- If you have any money left at the end of the month, after all those taxes that have been paid....you give a further 20% of every penny you spend to....... the government (ya know, the money that was already taxed in step 1 when you earned it) as tax.

Have a nice day.

 

What a absolutely spot on post.  should put this on faceaids really

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1 hour ago, JoeDavola said:

You are owned by the government, and owned by the banks.

If you dedicate a few years of your youth (some would argue the best years of your life) to slaving away to prove yourself worthy enough to get a 'decent' job (I'm assuming a STEM degree), you are put in massive debt for it before you begin.

Lets say you then spend another 5/10 years post-graduation getting to a point where you earn 40K in the average job that's out there.

You now have to:

- pay tax on what you earn

- pay off a never ending student loan debt

- spend most of your life renting from the bank via a huge never-ending mortgage....

- ...oh and we'll tax you via Stamp Duty when you go and buy that house. Yes, you're being taxed for the privilege of entering into 30 plus years of debt slavery.

- any money left after paying all the above? Good we'll need some of that for Council Tax.

- if you and another worker drone have the audacity to want to procreate, you'll both have to play the above game and pay further 'child minding tax' to a creche to look after your children. You see you likely can't afford to have one of you to stay at home to look after the kids, but even if by some miracle you could your wife has been brainwashed into believing that staying at home with your kids for the benefit of their family is oppression and that a lifetime of office work stress and tax paying for the benefit of the government and her employer is empowerment. 

- if you're in any way ambitious and want to strive to earn much more than that 40-ish mark, we'll be taking half of that amount by the way before you see it. As tax. Call it the Ambition Tax. You're welcome.

- If you have any money left at the end of the month, after all those taxes that have been paid....you give a further 20% of every penny you spend to....... the government (ya know, the money that was already taxed in step 1 when you earned it) as tax.

Have a nice day.

 

Now you see why I'm on a tax strike.

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