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Don't tell me the class system, generational wealth and a much easier/boost to some peoples early years has vanished.


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More than anything I just want to get this off my chest:)

Yesterday I was finishing off installing a security system for a very rich divorce lawyer I often do work for, he is actually quite an amusing guy and the banter and conversation is great and I quite often wind him up, but he knows most of the anti lawyer jokes. I caught him in conversation yesterday on loud speaker with a client who was using him on a probate issue where loads of money was involved. The guy sounded totally pissed off and was whinning on about other family members doing this that and the other, but I picked up on all that in conversation with lawyer on tea break and with me being a little nosey.

I live in an affluent village and I see this again and again, rich people that have had money in the family for generations watching it get passed down over and over again to children who have had every opportunity in life beforehand with private schools and loving stable backgrounds in parts of the UK that are a million miles from you council estate in Birmingham. Yet this client of this lawyer who was in for a huge wad of cash was down in the dumps over the huge sum he was going to get as I told the lawyer what a piece of greedy shit I thought he was and that so many people in the UK would love to be in that position, but to that greedy fucker it was his God given birth right and not enough.

Lived in a handful of villages now and see this over and over again, families with money constantly handing it down generation after generation, even know a few upper class types who are worse, please don't try and tell me that the class system and the huge advantage at the start of their lives is dead.

There, that's better, got that off my chest now:)

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If you don't allow people to pass money on to their children then they are going to be less productive and more likely to end up being a financial cost to the taxpayer as they have no incentive to sav

I am not against wealth passed down generations but the tax system is actually designed so that the majority of the population cannot accumulate any capital and pass it on while a sub section of socie

I am all in favour of a fair and level tax system. And it starts with a Land Value Tax; that tax would have no regard for trusts. There is the land value and the owner, be they person, body

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It's been mentioned in other threads that some of the wealthy folk in these picture postcard villages haven't acquired their wealth by fair dealing, or even legal dealing, but for some reason, they get a free pass because of their education, accent, an dress. They have possibly done more harm to the country than the bloke in the estate who bought his TV and buys his ciggies from a man in the pub. Yet which one is frowned upon and gets the stick more?

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19 minutes ago, haroldshand said:

More than anything I just want to get this off my chest:)

Yesterday I was finishing off installing a security system for a very rich divorce lawyer I often do work for, he is actually quite an amusing guy and the banter and conversation is great and I quite often wind him up, but he knows most of the anti lawyer jokes. I caught him in conversation yesterday on loud speaker with a client who was using him on a probate issue where loads of money was involved. The guy sounded totally pissed off and was whinning on about other family members doing this that and the other, but I picked up on all that in conversation with lawyer on tea break and with me being a little nosey.

I live in an affluent village and I see this again and again, rich people that have had money in the family for generations watching it get passed down over and over again to children who have had every opportunity in life beforehand with private schools and loving stable backgrounds in parts of the UK that are a million miles from you council estate in Birmingham. Yet this client of this lawyer who was in for a huge wad of cash was down in the dumps over the huge sum he was going to get as I told the lawyer what a piece of greedy shit I thought he was and that so many people in the UK would love to be in that position, but to that greedy fucker it was his God given birth right and not enough.

Lived in a handful of villages now and see this over and over again, families with money constantly handing it down generation after generation, even know a few upper class types who are worse, please don't try and tell me that the class system and the huge advantage at the start of their lives is dead.

There, that's better, got that off my chest now:)

Basic biological programming innit mate? It’s in our genes to do that.

You’ll (your selfish genes) will be doing the same.
 

 

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Much of the wealth is in forms that avoid IHT as well, particularly land. Usually when the subject of taxing landownership comes up people start batting on about domestic dwellings which is a bit of a red herring as housing only  occupies a fraction of the UK land surface and is the one form of land ownership that is taxed. A lot of land in the UK gets passed on from generation to generation without any duties imposed at all. The landed aristocracy historically lived on the rents paid by their tenants on agricultural land and that land is entirely exempt from IHT even though the owners rarely farm it themselves.

Edited by Virgil Caine
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15 minutes ago, Vendetta said:

Basic biological programming innit mate? It’s in our genes to do that.

You’ll (your selfish genes) will be doing the same.
 

 

Yep I do agree with you, and I am on no particular crusade to put it right, but I am just putting it out there.

Perverse thing is with many of these people that have been handed it on a plate, they will get all uppity about a few quid on a bill or quote and quite happily take 50% plus in rent off someones wages living on the bottom of the food chain and 20 times over.

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17 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

Much of the wealth is in forms that avoid IHT as well, particularly land. Usually when the subject of taxing landownership comes up people start batting on about domestic dwellings which is a bit of a red herring as housing only  occupies a fraction of the UK land surface and is the one form of land ownership that is taxed. A lot of land in the UK gets passed on from generation to generation without any duties imposed at all. The landed aristocracy historically lived on the rents paid by their tenants on agricultural land and that land is entirely exempt from IHT even though the owners rarely farm it themselves.

Just think, there have probably been dozens of generations who had the best of the best using ancestral money till this day maybe because the initial first person created wealth from killing some poor sod whose brother with power wanted him of the way in Norman times.

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7 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

My fundamental belief is that the only way to build a civilised society is to create one in which people who work can accumulate capital. This will give them a vested interest in maintaining it.  It would also reduce dependency and create a healthier political system less prone to influence by a few.  A world built with a tiny wealthy elite and the majority of the population dependent is ultimately not sustainable. That is the case regardless of whether the elite is politically formed as in the Soviet Union under communism or under a wealth based oligarchy as in the West. The problem is we are moving further and further away from that society and in the UK neither Conservatives or Labour have any interest in stopping that process.

I am sort of very much with you, I have said for a long time that if you make it possible for the kid in the gutter to get out of it through hard work and opportunities  then many will take it. Trouble right now we are keeping too many of them in the gutter while branding them at the same time with nasty names.

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24 minutes ago, haroldshand said:

Just think, there have probably been dozens of generations who had the best of the best using ancestral money till this day maybe because the initial first person created wealth from killing some poor sod whose brother with power wanted him of the way in Norman times.

You don’t have to go back to the Normans to see that process. Between 15%-20% of the land area of England was commons under managed ownership by villages until the end of the Middle Ages. Between beginning of the 17th Century and the end of the 19th Century most of that was enclosed normally to the benefit of existing landowners. The vast majority of it was carried out by Act of Parliament which needless to say was dominated by the very same landowners due to the restricted franchise of the era. It is probably one of the largest examples of legalised theft in history. Interestingly the best book on landownership in the UK was written by an Irishman. Unsurprising given the Irish had their own even worse experience of this process.

Edited by Virgil Caine
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53 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

If you don't allow people to pass money on to their children then they are going to be less productive and more likely to end up being a financial cost to the taxpayer as they have no incentive to save.

Even the aim for a "more equal society" is toxic because it requires more state intervention in personal matters and taking money from the productive and giving it to the non-productive.

Without diverting the thread I have noted this (being diminished rewards for the productive) as a real thing at work: pay differentials have been crushed and doubly so after tax. No internal candidates put themselves forward for jobs paying £10k more when they're already in the £40k - £60k band because the extra responsibility, hours and stress isn't worth the extra £400 / £500 per month.

We can all go "It's not fair" at inherited wealth but the alternative is much worse.

I'm with Frank.

You need to step back and go back a few generations.

Few families keep wealth for 3+ generations.

Earned income is taxed too high whilst wealth, as its non cash yielding is under taxed.

Over the years a number of gormless things have been setup. For rural areas the biggest one is farming subs. Whinger Today on radio was going on about 80% of farm incomes being subs. Theres inwork bennies. If a farmer wants that he can join the queue with dog groomers and other wasters. Or take a loan out on the farm.

Before EU farming subs most landed gentry types were brassic, being on the slide since WW2. A French clever idea to pay French peasants with German tax turned into a massive sub for posh Brits.

Scrap farming subs. They can claim UC if they are broke.

The max take of earned income are working aged people on in work bennies. 

Reduce bennies - make them contribution based, time limited.

Ukgov needs to keep out of peoples bedrooms n pockets. Any distribtion of wealth should be very limited and come with strict conditions- 40h/w work, kids in school. Do that and the dysfunctional fuck who Mrs spy n coworkers spend their time dealing with will disappear in a generation.

 

Edited by spygirl
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On very rare occasions (much less these days), we have provided professional services to high net worth private clients. A couple of these being landed gentry.

By far, they have been slowest payers of bills of any of our clients. 

They are usually very high maintenance, totally irrational and illogical and utterly cut off from the troubles of the common man.

 

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9 minutes ago, haroldshand said:

I am sort of very much with you, I have said for a long time that if you make it possible for the kid in the gutter to get out of it through hard work and opportunities  then many will take it. Trouble right now we are keeping too many of them in the gutter while branding them at the same time with nasty names.

We?

Kick low earning migrants out.

Set minimum wage to 2x national average before letting a migrant move to the UK.

The cretin browns gormless 'help the poor' has just drawn in 10m+ low paid migrants whove made the natives lives n outcome much much worse.

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2 minutes ago, Sasquatch said:

On very rare occasions (much less these days), we have provided professional services to high net worth private clients. A couple of these being landed gentry.

By far, they have been slowest payers of bills of any of our clients. 

They are usually very high maintenance, totally irrational and illogical and utterly cut off from the troubles of the common man.

 

They dont have much ready cash.

Again, farming subs have created loads of money sinks.

Stop giving them subs. Force the land to be sold off.

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3 minutes ago, spygirl said:

They dont have much ready cash.

Again, farming subs have created loads of money sinks.

Stop giving them subs. Force the land to be sold off.

If all inherited wealth went to the state - even more people would not be arsed to make anything of themselves and the state would over time be much poorer. Passing on your wealth to your children is a motivator. 

IHT is pretty high already in the U.K.... admittedly there are ways and means of avoiding it.

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1 minute ago, Vendetta said:

If all inherited wealth went to the state - even more people would not be arsed to make anything of themselves and the state would over time be much poorer. Passing on your wealth to your children is a motivator. 

IHT is pretty high already in the U.K.... admittedly there are ways and means of avoiding it.

I'm not going on about it.

I'm on about tax revenue being given to working age people ho dont work. And farmers with 1m+ of assets who need tax payer sub.

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45 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

I am not against wealth passed down generations but the tax system is actually designed so that the majority of the population cannot accumulate any capital and pass it on while a sub section of society are allowed to avoid paying any contribution at all on a large part of their wealth even 

Really? SIPPS and ISAs are fairly easy to access and offer good tax advantages. I think the main reason people dont accumulate capital is that they spend everything they have on consumer goods...

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47 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

I am not against wealth passed down generations but the tax system is actually designed so that the majority of the population cannot accumulate any capital and pass it on while a sub section of society are allowed to avoid paying any contribution at all on a large part of their wealth even though they are happy to use things that have been funded by the state out other people’s taxes. I state this as an ex Inland Revenue employee who saw how this operates in reality particularly with regard to historical trusts set up earlier in the 20th century which contain large amounts of wealth still protected from any form of taxation.

Can trusts be overturned by Parliament?

My dad has 1.5 million in a pension that is wrapped in a trust all invested in stocks through Hargreaves Lansdowne. Set up early 90s i believe. We don't really understand how it would split 3 ways when both parents die. He is currently only beneficiary. Take 44k cash a year out. He can't help me buy a bigger house without paying 40pc tax. Would this trust split 3 ways with each child being a beneficiary to their own pot?

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3 minutes ago, spygirl said:

I'm not going on about it.

I'm on about tax revenue being given to working age people ho dont work. And farmers with 1m+ of assets who need tax payer sub.

Imho, farming subsidies should just be scrapped. If an industry cant survive without massive support from the taxpayer it's not really an industry.

 

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6 minutes ago, RJT1979 said:

Can trusts be overturned by Parliament?

My dad has 1.5 million in a pension that is wrapped in a trust all invested in stocks through Hargreaves Lansdowne. Set up early 90s i believe. We don't really understand how it would split 3 ways when both parents die. He is currently only beneficiary. Take 44k cash a year out. He can't help me buy a bigger house without paying 40pc tax. Would this trust split 3 ways with each child being a beneficiary to their own pot?

You enter a very strange, expensive world with trusts.

To pass muster, a trust has a trustee assigned to oversee the trust on behalf if the person.

Your father cant do anything directly.

Equally the pension is nit hus assets, directly, so you might not benefit.

The trust might die with him o your mum.

You really have to understand trusts before you get into them.

 

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One of my neighbours has a huge estate. His dad died and left him something like £30m. It sounds a lot of money, however the rent from agricultural land is pish... maybe 1% a year. The house is huge and must cost about £300k to look after....

I reckon a lot of landed aristocracy are actually fairly hard up for cash.

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