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parking on private land appeals - should I pay or not?


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I recall @spunkois our resident expert on this.

A month back we visited some of the wifeys relatives in Southampton. They live in  a large private apartment block

The parking was full so we asked the Concierge if he knew of any overnight parking nearby. He said - park in the drop off point and move it first thing in the morning. Furthermore he wrote a note. I was reluctant to do this but wifey in a rush. Brother in law witnessed note being written

Next morning I went to move the car at 7.45am only to find the car had been ticketed. 

Invoice received from Premier Parking.  I appealed (internal appeal) on the basis that:

The land owner / occupier  in control of the land gave permission to park in the spot. They even wrote a note to place in the car window which was appended as evidence

Irrespective of whether the Concierge had authorisation or not  to do this is irrelevant. The land owner / occupier has a vicarious liability for actions of their staff / representatives. We acted in good faith accepting the invite to park on the land

Furthermore correspondence with the apartment management confirmed they are in control of the land. This was appended to the internal appeal documents. Despite this they say there is nothing they can do. 

 

Appeal rejected on the basis.

I should have read the noticeboard

The operative spoke to the Concierge at the time of ticketing (not the same Concierge as the one who gave permission) and he knew nothing. 

 

Should I go down the external appeal route with POPLA or is this just another pantomine?

Should I go fuck it, subject to exhausting the POPLA route and let them take me to the SCC?

Should I just pay the discounted invoice and get on with my life? 

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4 minutes ago, Kurt Barlow said:

 

I recall @spunkois our resident expert on this.

A month back we visited some of the wifeys relatives in Southampton. They live in  a large private apartment block

The parking was full so we asked the Concierge if he knew of any overnight parking nearby. He said - park in the drop off point and move it first thing in the morning. Furthermore he wrote a note. I was reluctant to do this but wifey in a rush. Brother in law witnessed note being written

Next morning I went to move the car at 7.45am only to find the car had been ticketed. 

Invoice received from Premier Parking.  I appealed (internal appeal) on the basis that:

The land owner / occupier  in control of the land gave permission to park in the spot. They even wrote a note to place in the car window which was appended as evidence

Irrespective of whether the Concierge had authorisation or not  to do this is irrelevant. The land owner / occupier has a vicarious liability for actions of their staff / representatives. We acted in good faith accepting the invite to park on the land

Furthermore correspondence with the apartment management confirmed they are in control of the land. This was appended to the internal appeal documents. Despite this they say there is nothing they can do. 

 

Appeal rejected on the basis.

I should have read the noticeboard

The operative spoke to the Concierge at the time of ticketing (not the same Concierge as the one who gave permission) and he knew nothing. 

 

Should I go down the external appeal route with POPLA or is this just another pantomine?

Should I go fuck it, subject to exhausting the POPLA route and let them take me to the SCC?

Should I just pay the discounted invoice and get on with my life? 

The landowner can cancel the ticket with Premier Parking. It's at the landowners discretion to do so.

Write to the landowner and ask them to do so

If they do not, appeal to POPLA

If POPLA reject also

Ignore Permier Parking, debt collection agencies thereafter

That's what I would do.

 

 

Edited by Hopeful
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Just now, Hopeful said:

The landowner can cancel the ticket with Premier Parking

Write to the landowner and ask them to do so

If they do not, appeal to POPLA

If POPLA reject also

Ignore Permier Parking, debt collection agencies thereafter

That's what I would do.

 

 

The landowner has already said ' nothing we can do' despite the fact it was their concierge who invited us to park there. 

So already exhausted that line of response. 

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1 minute ago, Kurt Barlow said:

The landowner has already said ' nothing we can do' despite the fact it was their concierge who invited us to park there. 

So already exhausted that line of response. 

Did you speak to the right person ?

Admittedly, they don't like cancelling tickets because they have a contract with the parking company and the company gets stroppy with the landowner, but it is something they can do.

Also "could the person be bothered to help you' comes into it

Is it a private company that runs the block? I'd threaten with a  letter to the local paper, local radio etc about how unfairly you were treated

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3 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Did you speak to the right person ?

Admittedly, they don't like cancelling tickets because they have a contract with the parking company and the company gets stroppy with the landowner, but it is something they can do.

Also "could the person be bothered to help you' comes into it

Is it a private company that runs the block? I'd threaten with a  letter to the local paper, local radio etc about how unfairly you were treated

It was the building manager. 

I didnt want to push the issue too far as wifes family (cousins not BIL as previously suggested) rent an apartment there. 

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depends how much you value your free time.  and by free time i mean time not spent engaging with these soul destroying cunts.

Thats pretty much how they get me these days.  One nanosecond spent having to engage with these cretins i consider to be too expensive in time and just pay up.

obviously if you're chasing this up while getting paid to be at a  worksite and then if you've nothing better to do then keep going

Edited by Poseidon
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5 hours ago, Kurt Barlow said:

 

I recall @spunkois our resident expert on this.

A month back we visited some of the wifeys relatives in Southampton. They live in  a large private apartment block

The parking was full so we asked the Concierge if he knew of any overnight parking nearby. He said - park in the drop off point and move it first thing in the morning. Furthermore he wrote a note. I was reluctant to do this but wifey in a rush. Brother in law witnessed note being written

Next morning I went to move the car at 7.45am only to find the car had been ticketed. 

Invoice received from Premier Parking.  I appealed (internal appeal) on the basis that:

The land owner / occupier  in control of the land gave permission to park in the spot. They even wrote a note to place in the car window which was appended as evidence

Irrespective of whether the Concierge had authorisation or not  to do this is irrelevant. The land owner / occupier has a vicarious liability for actions of their staff / representatives. We acted in good faith accepting the invite to park on the land

Furthermore correspondence with the apartment management confirmed they are in control of the land. This was appended to the internal appeal documents. Despite this they say there is nothing they can do. 

 

Appeal rejected on the basis.

I should have read the noticeboard

The operative spoke to the Concierge at the time of ticketing (not the same Concierge as the one who gave permission) and he knew nothing. 

 

Should I go down the external appeal route with POPLA or is this just another pantomine?

Should I go fuck it, subject to exhausting the POPLA route and let them take me to the SCC?

Should I just pay the discounted invoice and get on with my life? 

I'd go all the way to court. Thieving cunts.

 

I once got one for parking in a coop carpark in a H2L3 Citroën Relay, a very big van.

I sent them a picture of my van and their 1.9m entrance barrier as an appeal.

The store owned the access road which had the camer on it, which I had entered before realising I couldn't park, spent ten minutes doing a 30 point turn and looking on Google Maps for another carpark, then left.

My arse never left the seat.

After a few to and fros I eventually sent them a letter saying similar to,

"I will enter into no further communications other than those confirming a court date, any "solicitors" letter you send will not be opened and be at your own expense, any "Debt Collectors" letters you send will not be opened and at your own expense.

Court date or fuck off"

Not heard a peep in five years.

 

Had another,

Paid to park in a bay, parked entierly in a bay for the period I paid for and left.

A week later a Fine, same company.

Phoned then, apparently there was another rate for vans, I was in a Berlingo.

There was a sign that said "All day van parking rate £12.00" i wasn't staying all day so paid for what I needed.

Sent them a letter saying something along the lines of,

"After my experience with appealing PCN number xxxxxx and finding yourselves to be wholly unreasonable. I will be entering into no further communication with yourselves.....yada yada yada.

Court date or fuck off"

Not heard a word in nearly three years.

 

Treat them like the cunts they are.

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7 hours ago, Byron said:

Your mistake was using their rigged 'appeals' system.

Now they have contact with you and proof that you were the driver responsible for parking the car.

The iron rule is to totally ignore all communications, then they have the problem of showing that a contract exists between them and the person who parked the car (not necessarily the owner).

Sadly, by offering an 'appeals' system, they have dragged you on to the punch.

 

When we have previously discussed this the general view was to not ignore as companies like Parking 'Brown' Eye will pursue you in the SCC. 

By entering into the appeals process and exhausting it you have demonstrated to the court that you have used all opportunities to try and resolve. To not do this runs the risk of the court taking a less favourable view. 

 

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1 hour ago, Kurt Barlow said:

When we have previously discussed this the general view was to not ignore as companies like Parking 'Brown' Eye will pursue you in the SCC. 

By entering into the appeals process and exhausting it you have demonstrated to the court that you have used all opportunities to try and resolve. To not do this runs the risk of the court taking a less favourable view. 

 

How can they pursue you?

This not an offence, it is simply an implied contract between whoever parked the vehicle and the parking company.

How do they prove who parked the vehicle?

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If you still have the note from the concierge I’d be tempted to take it to court.  You had permission from the land owner to park on their land.  And you have it in writing.  Whatever contract they have with the parking company is not your concern,  it’s theirs.   
 

I can’t see how a court wouldn’t look sympathetically in your favour.  I’d be interested to see what others say.. perhaps with more direct personal experience.

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56 minutes ago, Libspero said:

If you still have the note from the concierge I’d be tempted to take it to court.  You had permission from the land owner to park on their land.  And you have it in writing.  Whatever contract they have with the parking company is not your concern,  it’s theirs.   
 

I can’t see how a court wouldn’t look sympathetically in your favour.  I’d be interested to see what others say.. perhaps with more direct personal experience.

Yes I do. and my wifes cousins hubby was witness to him writing it. To be fair he was just a hapless mug trying to be helpful. 

Its the personal accounts I'm interested in. 

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Having been down this route its a Pita. The Mrs was given a ticket by camera for entering a car park waiting 15 mins and leaving. This was 5 years ago. I offered to pay the parking fee and £20. I never heard from them and they never cashed the cheque. For the next 3 years I received letters from debt collection agencies for varying amounts citing court costs appearances and threats about once every few months. It never got taken further. The final demand was hundreds of pounds. I ignored them all. I figured at this stage it was expensive enough for me to risk a trip to SCC. 

I've since moved and not had any more because they've lost my contact details. I think only the authorised party ie PP can get your address from DVLA for 3 quid after the offence. My advice would be to take the cut price fee if its still available. It'll save you a lot of grief. The general consensus is if they do take you to court they will win but only win the quoted fine on the board plus minimal expenses in the SCC. They generally don't bother, just harass you until you give up. 

Edited by Green Devil
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14 hours ago, Byron said:

How can they pursue you?

This not an offence, it is simply an implied contract between whoever parked the vehicle and the parking company.

How do they prove who parked the vehicle?

It doesn't matter. They pursue the keeper of the vehicle. They get this information from dvla who dish it out for a small payment. There are test cases where the owner has had to pay their fine. They have test cases almost all scenarios which they quote to you in the extortion letters the debt collectors send to you. 

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On 16/11/2020 at 11:58, Kurt Barlow said:

 

I recall @spunkois our resident expert on this.

A month back we visited some of the wifeys relatives in Southampton. They live in  a large private apartment block

The parking was full so we asked the Concierge if he knew of any overnight parking nearby. He said - park in the drop off point and move it first thing in the morning. Furthermore he wrote a note. I was reluctant to do this but wifey in a rush. Brother in law witnessed note being written

Next morning I went to move the car at 7.45am only to find the car had been ticketed. 

Invoice received from Premier Parking.  I appealed (internal appeal) on the basis that:

The land owner / occupier  in control of the land gave permission to park in the spot. They even wrote a note to place in the car window which was appended as evidence

Irrespective of whether the Concierge had authorisation or not  to do this is irrelevant. The land owner / occupier has a vicarious liability for actions of their staff / representatives. We acted in good faith accepting the invite to park on the land

Furthermore correspondence with the apartment management confirmed they are in control of the land. This was appended to the internal appeal documents. Despite this they say there is nothing they can do. 

 

Appeal rejected on the basis.

I should have read the noticeboard

The operative spoke to the Concierge at the time of ticketing (not the same Concierge as the one who gave permission) and he knew nothing. 

 

Should I go down the external appeal route with POPLA or is this just another pantomine?

Should I go fuck it, subject to exhausting the POPLA route and let them take me to the SCC?

Should I just pay the discounted invoice and get on with my life? 

Pay them fuck all bin all corespondents unless from a county court never admit anything not even your name  But you could well have failed at the first hurdle as you have agreed to owing them money 

Never ever contact a private parking company regarding a ticket ,read your log book i says this is not proof of ownership ,let them prove everything in a court which will never happen  

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7 hours ago, Green Devil said:

It doesn't matter. They pursue the keeper of the vehicle. They get this information from dvla who dish it out for a small payment. There are test cases where the owner has had to pay their fine. They have test cases almost all scenarios which they quote to you in the extortion letters the debt collectors send to you. 

That was my understanding. Basically courts will assume the registered keeper is the driver unless shown otherwise. In effect a reverse burden of proof. 

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1 hour ago, Long time lurking said:

Pay them fuck all bin all corespondents unless from a county court never admit anything not even your name  But you could well have failed at the first hurdle as you have agreed to owing them money 

Never ever contact a private parking company regarding a ticket ,read your log book i says this is not proof of ownership ,let them prove everything in a court which will never happen  

That is entirely possible. But it will be a load of grief and hassle. It takes a certain type of person to stomach for years the extortion then go through the courts. 

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41 minutes ago, Green Devil said:

That is entirely possible. But it will be a load of grief and hassle. It takes a certain type of person to stomach for years the extortion then go through the courts. 

They know the game they give up pretty quickly now and sell the debt for pennies to a debt collection agencies,and you can NEVER owe them money unless you agree to owing them money  

The only special thing need is never give anyone your name until you know exactly who they are this should be standard practice these days especially so if it over the phone

It will never end up in the court if you give them no name as they know exactly what it says on the log book 

You are innocent until proven guilty even in a civil court ,it`s not worth the hassle to them as they know a mug will be along shortly to cough up without a fight ,if you are a tad twitchy ask for a photo to prove who was driving the car if there is no mug shot of you they will know what`s coming next and give up

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1 hour ago, Kurt Barlow said:

That was my understanding. Basically courts will assume the registered keeper is the driver unless shown otherwise. In effect a reverse burden of proof. 

 You are innocent until proven guilty and it`s a civil matter and they have to prove who was driving it l;ie i said in the post above if you are twitchy ask for a photo they have to provide it if they have one no mug shot no proof game set and match and they know it but will never admit it 

Council parking tickets are covered by  criminal law and you would be right in that  instance  as the law now says it`s illegal no to have the details of the driver of a vehicle registered to you or words to that effect and falling to grass that person up leaves you with a default charge/fine 

 

 

Edited by Long time lurking
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7 hours ago, Kurt Barlow said:

That was my understanding. Basically courts will assume the registered keeper is the driver unless shown otherwise. In effect a reverse burden of proof. 

We have to differentiate between fixed penalty notices that are issued under criminal law and Parking Charge Notices that are not covered by any law.

A FPN will go to the Magistrates court and you either name the driver or the penalty is exacted against the owner as provided for in the law.

In the case of a PCN, it is a civil matter of breach of contract between two parties, further complicated by the fact that the parking company are acting as agents for the landowner.

It is true that civil courts use the lower 'Balance of probabilities' as opposed to the 'Beyond reasonable doubt' of the criminal courts, but in the absence of any evidence at all as to who parked the car, the civil court can go no further, and must dismiss the case.

Also, for the parking company to sue, they will have to

1 Engage an enquiry agent to call on you and verify your name and address (After all, you may have moved or even be dead

2 Engage a solicitor to present the case. They will have to prove that they have the authority of the landowner, their evidence as to parking (Generally a photograph of the vehicle), evidence as to the visibility of the signs in the car park, and evidence that the person they have summoned to court was actually the driver of the vehicle at the time.

3 The court will probably accept that there is a valid contract between the driver and the parking company. The snag is, who was the driver?

4 They will only be able to claim the parking charge, none of the fantastic 'Admin Expenses' that they insist on threatening you with.

Costs are not awarded in a Small Claims Court beyond a small reasonable amount known as 'Fixed costs' (court fees etc.) and the court will not award legal costs, (i.e. Solicitor's costs)

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