Jump to content
DOSBODS
  • Welcome to DOSBODS

     

    DOSBODS is free of any advertising.

    Ads are annoying, and - increasingly - advertising companies limit free speech online. DOSBODS Forums are completely free to use. Please create a free account to be able to access all the features of the DOSBODS community. It only takes 20 seconds!

     

Deer Island Prison


SNACR
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • 2 months later...
Hail the Tripod

Thanks @SNACR for posting this, as I had never heard of it. I have to say this has been preying in my mind for a while.

It seems to me that bacterial infections are actually relatively well understood. Everyone just assumes that virus infection is mechanistically, basically the same: they are in some sense rare, mostly your skin protects you, unless they can sneak in and make you ill.

However, I’m starting to wonder if this is largely bollocks.

Take for instance the strains of HPV that cause warts/verrucas. The basic theory runs that occasionally a skin break gets infected by them and it’s just bad luck. Except the virus is fucking everywhere, because it lasts for ages and doesn’t die from detergents. It doesn’t reliably manifest after a break in the skin, or require a break in the skin to manifest. Most people have long term infections that manifest periodically, if at all. There doesn’t seem to be any explanation for how poorly this fits the standard explanation of infection.

One of the most amazing things about the Covid scare has been how little effect social distancing and other measures have actually made.

A friend of mine’s husband caught Covid in hospital. She shared a bed with him for a couple of days, and was kept up all night by his coughing before they realised. Didn’t catch it. Maybe just immune? Seemingly apropos of nothing she did then manage to catch it 6 months later during lockdown.

 

It’s all very strange if it is just a matter of direct exposure without some other critical confounding factor(s). I don’t mean just Covid, but viral infection generally.

Edited by Hail the Tripod
  • Agree 1
  • Informative 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Thanks @SNACR for posting this, as I had never heard of it. I have to say this has been preying in my mind for a while.

It seems to me that bacterial infections are actually relatively well understood. Everyone just assumes that virus infection is mechanistically, basically the same: they are in some sense rare, mostly your skin protects you, unless they can sneak in and make you ill.

However, I’m starting to wonder if this is largely bollocks.

Take for instance the strains of HPV that cause warts/verrucas. The basic theory runs that occasionally a skin break gets infected by them and it’s just bad luck. Except the virus is fucking everywhere, because it lasts for ages and doesn’t die from detergents. It doesn’t reliably manifest after a break in the skin, or require a break in the skin to manifest. Most people have long term infections that manifest periodically, if at all. There doesn’t seem to be any explanation for how poorly this fits the standard explanation of infection.

One of the most amazing things about the Covid scare has been how little effect social distancing and other measures have actually made.

A friend of mine’s husband caught Covid in hospital. She shared a bed with him for a couple of days, and was kept up all night by his coughing before they realised. Didn’t catch it. Maybe just immune? Seemingly apropos of nothing she did then manage to catch it 6 months later during lockdown.

 

It’s all very strange if it is just a matter of direct exposure without some other critical confounding factor(s). I don’t mean just Covid, but viral infection generally.

It's all very interesting.

I've said since the start this covid thing seems very much more like an allergy. 

Virus / allergy who knows. 

But it just seems to barely affect nearly everyone.

A small number get a bit ill but recover fine. 

And a tiny % seem to be totally floored by it and utterly fucked by it.

Just weird. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

41 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

It’s all very strange if it is just a matter of direct exposure without some other critical confounding factor(s). I don’t mean just Covid, but viral infection generally.

I don't have a fully fledged theory on the topic, but I am very sympathetic to the fringe alt-medical view that disease is often caused by imbalances and systemic disturbances that have not been addressed, resulting in chronic problems. With viruses, I don't see why similar principles wouldn't also apply - i.e. these things are out there all the time in our environment, but we are only susceptible to them under certain prevailing conditions. Everybody knows the truism that you only catch colds when you are tired and run down, or stressed. Also, that it's quite common to become ill once you have taken some annual leave, as if the virus was just "waiting for the right time". Obviously they aren't really cunning in that way, it's just that most of the time they won't even get sufficient foothold to make us sneeze or have a runny nose, let alone lay us flat. So contact with a virus isn't sufficient to "catch" it, imo. In that Deer Island experiment, maybe those prisoners were a self-selected sample somehow, in that their immune systems were very robust for some reason (regular meals, regular sleep patterns, not stressing every day about how to pay the bills etc.)? It's certainly curious. 

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, LC1 said:

In that Deer Island experiment, maybe those prisoners were a self-selected sample somehow, in that their immune systems were very robust for some reason (regular meals, regular sleep patterns, not stressing every day about how to pay the bills etc.)? It's certainly curious. 

They are very much a self-selecting sample n one respect,  they have to be at pretty much the highest risk contact end apart from say a hospital in terms of spread so in all likelihood if anything was around they would be  likely to have been already exposed it by the time some medic came around to specifically give it to them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, onlyme said:

They are very much a self-selecting sample n one respect,  they have to be at pretty much the highest risk contact end apart from say a hospital in terms of spread so in all likelihood if anything was around they would be  likely to have been already exposed it by the time some medic came around to specifically give it to them. 

True, except they repeated the experiment with another group of prisoners from some island that was considered to have been totally free of the virus, and got the same results :)

Or perhaps they had a natural immunity? With sixty-two volunteers that seemed unlikely, but not totally impossible. So the experiment was performed again in San Francisco, this time with fifty volunteers who would receive pardons for military crimes, but this trial had stricter controls. All the volunteers had been at the naval base on Yerba Buena island in San Francisco Bay, and it was believed none had been exposed to the first wave of the flu. This experiment produced the same results.
Edited by LC1
quote added
  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
15 minutes ago, onlyme said:

They are very much a self-selecting sample n one respect,  they have to be at pretty much the highest risk contact end apart from say a hospital in terms of spread so in all likelihood if anything was around they would be  likely to have been already exposed it by the time some medic came around to specifically give it to them. 

Probably all men in their prime, fed on simple food, and accustomed to physical outdoors work on a chain gang. Basically fit and healthy.

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lightly Toasted
9 hours ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Probably all men in their prime, fed on simple food, and accustomed to physical outdoors work on a chain gang. Basically fit and healthy.

Plus only a robust person (or at least, someone who considered himself robust) would volunteer for what must have seemed a hazardous experiment.

Then again healthy young people were the ones most at risk, iirc.

Maybe going into it with a positive mindset with the prospect of earning a deeply-desired reward (again, you'd have to be an optimist) helped.

Very interesting, anyway.

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Haven’t got time for a long post now but one thing I don’t rule out with the Spanish Flu, given the large mortality amongst young soldiers, is there’s some cover-up element for all those deaths. Something like a botched attempt to medically protect them against mustard gas, or something like that. It’s frequently cited that the limited nature of the data, from the time, is due to so many mortalities being within the armed forces.

The problem with conventional wisdom, on how viruses spread, is it has one of the catchiest marketing slogans, ever coined, in ‘coughs and sneezes spread diseases’ that’s hard to get past.

  • Agree 1
  • Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
18 minutes ago, Lightly Toasted said:

Plus only a robust person (or at least, someone who considered himself robust) would volunteer for what must have seemed a hazardous experiment.

Then again healthy young people were the ones most at risk, iirc.

Maybe going into it with a positive mindset with the prospect of earning a deeply-desired reward (again, you'd have to be an optimist) helped.

Very interesting, anyway.

I think that may just be an artefact of so many of the young men of Europe having just spent 4 years in the trenches. Not healthy.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, SNACR said:

 

The problem with conventional wisdom, on how viruses spread, is it has one of the catchiest marketing slogans, ever coined, in ‘coughs and sneezes spread diseases’ that’s hard to get past.

Yes, thank you, Murray fucking Walker. Possibly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, SNACR said:

Haven’t got time for a long post now but one thing I don’t rule out with the Spanish Flu, given the large mortality amongst young soldiers, is there’s some cover-up element for all those deaths. Something like a botched attempt to medically protect them against mustard gas, or something like that. It’s frequently cited that the limited nature of the data, from the time, is due to so many mortalities being within the armed forces.

The problem with conventional wisdom, on how viruses spread, is it has one of the catchiest marketing slogans, ever coined, in ‘coughs and sneezes spread diseases’ that’s hard to get past.

Interesting.

 

Didn't they treat every soldier with DDT......a powder put into their clothes to control lice?

 

ddt_wwii_soldier-243x300-1.jpg

  • Informative 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Democorruptcy
19 hours ago, Hail the Tripod said:

One of the most amazing things about the Covid scare has been how little effect social distancing and other measures have actually made.

A friend of mine’s husband caught Covid in hospital. She shared a bed with him for a couple of days, and was kept up all night by his coughing before they realised. Didn’t catch it. Maybe just immune? Seemingly apropos of nothing she did then manage to catch it 6 months later during lockdown.

It’s all very strange if it is just a matter of direct exposure without some other critical confounding factor(s). I don’t mean just Covid, but viral infection generally.

Maybe she was carrying it all the time? I know of people who feel fine but have tested positive. Maybe it lies dormant and the length of that time depends on the state of your lungs when you caught it?

Edited by Democorruptcy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
13 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Maybe she was carrying it all the time? I know of people who feel fine but have tested positive. Maybe it lies dormant and the length of that time depends on the state of your lungs when you caught it?

Maybe. That does seem the pattern with the HPV example I used. Long term “infection” but only manifesting as disease sporadically. Is it the presence of some co-factor that causes disease to manifest (and determines how)? Is it just weakened immune function somehow?

  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Democorruptcy
5 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Maybe. That does seem the pattern with the HPV example I used. Long term “infection” but only manifesting as disease sporadically. Is it the presence of some co-factor that causes disease to manifest (and determines how)? Is it just weakened immune function somehow?

Another mad cow?

Quote

 

Scientists believe that this disease can lie dormant in people for up to 50 years - renewing our fears of future deaths. We are nearly 20 years on from our first outbreak of Mad Cow's Disease, experts warning that the whole of the UK could face a second deadly epidemic at anytime.

https://www.familiesonline.co.uk/news/experts-are-warning-uk-may-be-ticking-timebomb-with-mad-cow-epidemic

 

Maybe more people die of that now than is realised because they aren't tested for it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
7 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Another mad cow?

Maybe more people die of that now than is realised because they aren't tested for it?

Exposing myself as a full conspiraloon, “prion theory” is really just the result of a total failure to find an actual causal factor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Democorruptcy
1 minute ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Exposing myself as a full conspiraloon, “prion theory” is really just the result of a total failure to find an actual causal factor.

Bloody hell we haven't gone full conspiraloon have we? When you put:

Quote

Is it the presence of some co-factor that causes disease to manifest

I resisted mentioning 5G!

Oh no.... I've only gone and mentioned it anyway!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Maybe more people die of that now than is realised because they aren't tested for it?

I've heard it speculated that "dementia" is late onset CJD.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
6 minutes ago, Democorruptcy said:

Bloody hell we haven't gone full conspiraloon have we? When you put:

I resisted mentioning 5G!

Oh no.... I've only gone and mentioned it anyway!

Extremely doubtful, but possible I suppose. I was thinking probably something more like fairly mundane, biological immune stressors. Maybe even just stress and anxiety at a push.

Edited by Hail the Tripod
  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO there's lots that isn't known about viral infections.

I've become a bit interested in the generalised application of Geerts Covid theory that what happens with respiratory tract infections (perhaps others) is that you have an initial infection that is completely suppressed by the innate immune response, but that introduces antibodies that then allow systemic infection on a second infection within the antibody wane period (this is about 4 weeks* for natural covid infection).

This is interesting because it would explain the Deer Island results (etc) -- the participants were all infected at the same time and thus there was no second infection in the 'danger period'.

There's very little out there on this potential mechanism -- but that means that there's little data available to disprove it...  It might be counter to the current mainstream but it doesn't appear to be 'impossible' -- it is very interesting and really I'd like to see it countered properly by available data (there's surely some data available on the way infections spread etc).

[* it depends on the antibody.  But it is very interesting how some of the antibodies for covid wane rather rapidly while others are maintained.  There doesn't appear to be a reason for this, which usually means that you've just not worked out the reason yet... ]

Edited by dgul
Never apologise, never explain.
  • Informative 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Democorruptcy said:

Bloody hell we haven't gone full conspiraloon have we? When you put:

I resisted mentioning 5G!

Oh no.... I've only gone and mentioned it anyway!

Glad you said it before me, I managed to bite my virtual tongue! :)

  • Lol 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"The germ is nothing. The terrain is everything"
Dr. Pastuer (on his death bed, finally admitting his research was flawed)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Masked Tulip
On 31/12/2020 at 06:46, SNACR said:

This been covered before on here from the Spanish flu pandemic?

 

Dr. Richard Shope, a well-regarded scientist who specialized in the study of flu and influenza, opened one of his most famous lectures as follows:
“We are faced at the moment with the most publicized influenza epidemic of all time, and there is great diversity of opinion concerning its eventual course and outcome. Some, who believe that the present outbreak is no different from those that have appeared periodically since the 1918-1920 pandemic, contend that it will come and go without any serious effects and that the public is being unduly alarmed. Others feel that the present outbreak bears some of the earmarks of the epidemic illness that occurred in the spring preceding the great influenza pandemic of the autumn of 1918 and that, as such, may constitute but the first wave of a more serious type of influenza to follow.”

Shope wrote this in 1958, yet his words sound like the atmosphere of today. Yes, there are differences between the respective viruses, but the point here is not to discuss epidemiology but to note how today has so many historical parallels.

In 1918 the Spanish Flu was a worldwide pandemic, first appearing  – it is generally believed – in Spain in the spring of that year. This struck many troops in Europe and throughout the world, but it was relatively mild, focused on people ages 15 to 34, and then disappeared. A second wave struck starting in the last week of August, and this was a much more virulent version. Data suggests that in the U.S., the second wave started in Boston, possibly brought over from Europe. Boston was a major hub for troops and troop movement. Many young and healthy soldiers were struck down and died quickly from the disease.

Shope discussed a much-studied experiment, or what today would be called a “clinical trial,” conducted nearby in Boston. The Navy and Public Health Services in November and December of 1918 sought and obtained sixty-two volunteers, naval prisoners age 18 through 34 on Deer Island in Boston Harbor. These prisoners were offered to have their sentences reduced or commuted if they volunteered. The volunteers were exposed to the flu in a variety of ways, including but not limited to, intravenous injections, arranging for conversations and close contact between test subjects and infected individuals, and having their nose and/or throat swabbed with secretions from infected persons. One prisoner developed a mildly inflamed throat. That was it. All others showed no signs of the flu.

Why? Science is still not sure, but it leads to some speculations about flu and initiated a discussion about acquired immunity. Perhaps some of the prisoners had contracted the earlier, milder version of the flu and were asymptomatic, or were all naturally immune, or some combination thereof. Could all the prisoners have been exposed and developed an immunity? Or perhaps they had a natural immunity? With sixty-two volunteers that seemed unlikely, but not totally impossible. So the experiment was performed again in San Francisco, this time with fifty volunteers who would receive pardons for military crimes, but this trial had stricter controls. All the volunteers had been at the naval base on Yerba Buena island in San Francisco Bay, and it was believed none had been exposed to the first wave of the flu. This experiment produced the same results.

Not one prisoner was infected with the flu. Why? How could this be? The then-raging flu was striking down young and presumable healthy individuals by the thousands, particularly in military bases. Scientists then and to date have studied these cases, and while there are many theories, there is no conclusive answer. The results of these experiments are counter-intuitive to most theories of how flu spread. On a legal note: these experiments could not take place in the U.S. today, at least not as they were conducted, because of laws that have been passed since then which prohibit giving too attractive, and/or unethical incentives to participate in a clinical trial.

 

 

I had heard of the San Francisco experiment but not the Boston one.

What the above does not indicate is whether the sailors infected with the virus at Boston were infected PRIOR to the major outbreak in Boston itself. In other words, is there speculation that the test actually was the start of the outbreak there? Or was it already raging there?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just seen this book synopsis after one of her other vids was linked by @Hail the Tripod in another thread, and it seems relevant to this topic - questioning of germ theory by looking at evidence in cases of bird flu, swine flu, spanish flu, HIV, H5N1 etc. Will probably buy the book if I can find the latest edition with the added Covid chapter...

 

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hail the Tripod
12 minutes ago, LC1 said:

Just seen this book synopsis after one of her other vids was linked by @Hail the Tripod in another thread, and it seems relevant to this topic - questioning of germ theory by looking at evidence in cases of bird flu, swine flu, spanish flu, HIV, H5N1 etc. Will probably buy the book if I can find the latest edition with the added Covid chapter...

 

Not cheap, £27 from WHSmiths. More from Amazon and Waterstones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...