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A question for the legally qualified. Is it actually against the law to venture far from home ?


Bornagain
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Bornagain

I wonder if somebody could answer a simple question.

We are looking to fill our time and are planning trips out - which may be for example to the Derbyshire Dales -70 miles away.

According to the governments website we "should" not travel ourside the "local area" but it does not say we "must" not travel outside this area - whatever "local area" means.

So, if I understand things correctly we can perfectly legally travel to the Dales for a day out in the hills and whilst the police can be upset, they can't actually do anything about it.

Is my understanding correct ?

 

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sarahbell

Imagine saying 'and that's why I did that, your honour'

How does it sound?

 

Are toilets going to be open wherever you're going?

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Bornagain
2 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

Imagine saying 'and that's why I did that, your honour'

How does it sound?

 

Are toilets going to be open wherever you're going?

If I am correct then I won't be breaking a law and therefore won't be going to court.

Toilet ? we are walkers, that means there are 1000's of acres of toilet...

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Austin Allegro

The regs say 'you should not travel outside your local area.'

No definition of what 'local area' means.

If it's 'should' rather than 'must', that's not clear either. 

In the highly unlikely event of being stopped by the police, they are most likely just to tell you to go home. In the worst case scenario you'll get a £100 fine or if you're feeling brave, you can refuse that and argue it in court.

We need to stop looking at this in the old way. In occupied France in 1940 would you have quibbled with the Germans about what their regulations meant? You either obey them more strictly than they intend, or you do everything in your power to get round them.

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My interpretation is that must is law and should is guidance.  Some relevant links (that I haven't yet read fully):

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374/schedule/3A

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2021/8/contents/made

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

From the last link:

You must not leave, or be outside of your home except where necessary. You may leave the home to:

  • blah, blah, blah
  • exercise with your household (or support bubble) or one other person, this should be limited to once per day, and you should not travel outside your local area.
  • blah, blah, blah

If you do leave home for a permitted reason, you should always stay local - unless it is necessary to go further, for example to go to work. Stay local means stay in the village, town, or part of the city where you live.

I wouldn't get much of a bike ride if I stayed in my town, so I'll be ignoring that entirely.

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When it comes to Covid and the current lockdown, if they can fine you they will.

No point in arguing about it over a trip to the seaside.

 

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Bornagain
4 minutes ago, dgul said:

When it comes to Covid and the current lockdown, if they can fine you they will.

No point in arguing about it over a trip to the seaside.

 

As far as I can tell, if I get stopped by a policeman and he takes a dislike to me and wants to give me a fixed penalty then I can refuse and take my day in court -  I have read that CPS would be very unlikely to proceed as I have not broken the law.

I am attempting to satisfy myself (well, actually the wife) that my understanding is correct and the law does not stop me from travelling.

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Democorruptcy

Print out a brochure of a house for sale from your destination. Viewings are allowed, could say you were going to look outside then phone if you liked it. Owners must be in lockdown so in there!

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longtomsilver

It's a grey area and that's intentional imo local to me is my nearest hill 35 miles away or the brisk walk along the canal to the next town (12 mile round trip). I went on that walk today and about 3 miles in a gentleman outside his house firing up his canal boat asked me where I'd come from, naively I thought he was just being inquisitive and told him - he replied "that's a bit far to be considered local" and instead of telling him to fuck off like I normally would I explained to him that it was on foot from my house which appeased and we chatted pleasantly about other things until a couple of walkers with hiking backpacks walked past and he shrieked "I bet they're not local" by being ambiguous it allows the serfs to be annoyingly invasive of others privacy and if there is a contravention they'll be doing the police's job which allows 4 yes four policemen to police the local national trust park and fine people who were not local in this instance they considered it to be anyone not apart of the adjoining village so they are doing NIMBYs a service - utter shit their message was you can only exercise outdoors once per day so get back on your hamsterwheel serf.

I exercise more than once per day as I find it mentally restorative. There's been more suicides in my area than actual covid deaths and I've seen an alarming number of missing person reports going up on social media. Predominantly middle aged white males and teenagers (m&f).

Edited by longtomsilver
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16 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

As far as I can tell, if I get stopped by a policeman and he takes a dislike to me and wants to give me a fixed penalty then I can refuse and take my day in court -  I have read that CPS would be very unlikely to proceed as I have not broken the law.

I am attempting to satisfy myself (well, actually the wife) that my understanding is correct and the law does not stop me from travelling.

The whole system is against you.  

I sort-of agree with the premise -- don't let them destroy our freedom (etc) -- but I can't help but think 'fight the right battles'.

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JoeDavola

The term in NI is 'legally enforcable'.

And no, I don't know what that means either. But we're being told basically don't leave the house, and if you must leave the house then do so as infrequently as possible.

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Chewing Grass

Basically if you are not in a motorised vehicle or on public transport you can go as far as you like as you are 99.99% certain to be going home.

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I went everywhere in the first lockdown and visited loads of totally deserted tourist places that would normally be rammed.

However, I was travelling for work as we were trading through lockdown. Therefore was happy just to say pulled in to take daily exercise.

Despite the whole country being like 28 days later and totally deserted in most places I was only stopped or spoken to once by the Police and that was in Wales.

Toilets will be no worse than normal.

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MrLibertyRedux

I couldn't have reason to leave my local area, but I could make up any bullshit I needed to as a freelance consultant if I needed too. I also have nice countryside on my doorstep so it isn't neccessary as there would be nothing open to do if I wanted to go further abroad in the land.

I do have a legend prepped for anything I might need to do. Main problem is you really need to give a legit name and address if asked so if they decide to call your bluff and check you are OK. The rest you can make up as you are under no obligation to provide any more information other than reason to travel as far as I am aware.

I noticed in one of the videos of the police harassing people in Hyde Park, they were asking people to provide ID to prove they were part of the same household, which you have no obligation to provide or carry even under the emergency legislation unless anyone can tell me otherwise? As far as I am concerned, they can still ony ask for your name and address if they have reasonable suspicion you are commiting a crime.

1 hour ago, Austin Allegro said:

We need to stop looking at this in the old way. In occupied France in 1940 would you have quibbled with the Germans about what their regulations meant? You either obey them more strictly than they intend, or you do everything in your power to get round them.

Couldn't agree more, a brilliant way of thinking about it.

On the surface I'm a Grade A Law Abiding Citizen. Professional person with impeccable credentials, never even been arrested or had a speeding ticket. Even a former Government employee with the relevant clearances.

On the surface.

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1 hour ago, Bornagain said:

If I am correct then I won't be breaking a law and therefore won't be going to court.

Toilet ? we are walkers, that means there are 1000's of acres of toilet...

It’s this simple

If confronted by an officious plod can you confidently Jedi mind trick yourself out of trouble and not look guilty normally.

If not are you prepared to gamble on the small risk you will be stopped and pay the ticket without it eating you inside for weeks or have limitless time for fighting a battle in court where victory isn’t a certainty.

Me, I’d happily go out but it's really down to your own individual personality.

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8 minutes ago, leonardratso said:

what if your homeless

That's more like it.

 

Alternatively I live in my car. And I'm a minimalist so only have a shovel and a mars bar inside.

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leonardratso
11 minutes ago, JohnnyB said:

That's more like it.

 

Alternatively I live in my car. And I'm a minimalist so only have a shovel and a mars bar inside.

i always include a bag of lime and some bin liners in my car with the shovel.

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1 hour ago, longtomsilver said:

It's a grey area and that's intentional imo local to me is my nearest hill 35 miles away or the brisk walk along the canal to the next town (12 mile round trip). I went on that walk today and about 3 miles in a gentleman outside his house firing up his canal boat asked me where I'd come from, naively I thought he was just being inquisitive and told him - he replied "that's a bit far to be considered local" and instead of telling him to fuck off like I normally would I explained to him that it was on foot from my house which appeased and we chatted pleasantly about other things until a couple of walkers with hiking backpacks walked past and he shrieked "I bet they're not local" by being ambiguous it allows the serfs to be annoyingly invasive of others privacy and if there is a contravention they'll be doing the police's job which allows 4 yes four policemen to police the local national trust park and fine people who were not local in this instance they considered it to be anyone not apart of the adjoining village so they are doing NIMBYs a service - utter shit their message was you can only exercise outdoors once per day so get back on your hamsterwheel serf.

I exercise more than once per day as I find it mentally restorative. There's been more suicides in my area than actual covid deaths and I've seen an alarming number of missing person reports going up on social media. Predominantly middle aged white males and teenagers (m&f).

I run on the local hills/cross country which means a) a flabby PC can keep up with me, and b) a police car cannot follow me...although there is always that expensive helicopter they chase after real criminals with.

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MrLibertyRedux
5 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

I run on the local hills/cross country which means a) a flabby PC can keep up with me, and b) a police car cannot follow me...although there is always that expensive helicopter they chase after real criminals with the fly boys like to take out for as many jolly's as they can

FTFY

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assetrichcashpoor

I’m not legally trained but my worthless opinion is you can travel as far as you like. The wording is should not shall so it’s guidance. The police or branch covidians might try to give you a warning or a fixed penalty but this could be refused and you could go to court instead. It’s hard to see it being prosecuted if it’s guidance not governance, but if it is I think you can argue your actions were reasonable i.e. you didn’t meet anyone, your not showing symptoms etc. were getting exercise that is clearly a benefit on the war on covid. You could be more likely to come into contact with other people if you were exercising within the vicinity of where you live. 

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Democorruptcy
2 hours ago, longtomsilver said:

It's a grey area and that's intentional imo local to me is my nearest hill 35 miles away or the brisk walk along the canal to the next town (12 mile round trip). I went on that walk today and about 3 miles in a gentleman outside his house firing up his canal boat asked me where I'd come from, naively I thought he was just being inquisitive and told him - he replied "that's a bit far to be considered local" and instead of telling him to fuck off like I normally would I explained to him that it was on foot from my house which appeased and we chatted pleasantly about other things until a couple of walkers with hiking backpacks walked past and he shrieked "I bet they're not local" by being ambiguous it allows the serfs to be annoyingly invasive of others privacy and if there is a contravention they'll be doing the police's job which allows 4 yes four policemen to police the local national trust park and fine people who were not local in this instance they considered it to be anyone not apart of the adjoining village so they are doing NIMBYs a service - utter shit their message was you can only exercise outdoors once per day so get back on your hamsterwheel serf.

I exercise more than once per day as I find it mentally restorative. There's been more suicides in my area than actual covid deaths and I've seen an alarming number of missing person reports going up on social media. Predominantly middle aged white males and teenagers (m&f).

If anybody interrogates me as if they're a Nazi I'm going to do this:

 

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Bornagain
34 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

I run on the local hills/cross country which means a) a flabby PC can keep up with me, and b) a police car cannot follow me...although there is always that expensive helicopter they chase after real criminals with.

So do I, I only had this conversation with a friend yesterday, if I am on my own and get into trouble with the police then I am just going to run away, there is practically no chance they will catch me unless they summon up a lot of help....

In truth, it is only likely that we will have a problem if we get stopped at a car park in the peaks - I can't do a runner as they will have the reg number...

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ashestoashes

you don't mention eyesight problems so I would stay within 5 miles

If you were in a crash 70 miles away would you go to your local hospital ?

you're house hunting

looking for roadkill for your new taxidermy business

setting up a hiking blog which will be your business

just imagine you're an Equality and Human Rights CEO, do what you want

say you've got no tv or radio and haven't seen any signs saying don't travel

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48 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

So do I, I only had this conversation with a friend yesterday, if I am on my own and get into trouble with the police then I am just going to run away, there is practically no chance they will catch me unless they summon up a lot of help....

In truth, it is only likely that we will have a problem if we get stopped at a car park in the peaks - I can't do a runner as they will have the reg number...

You were already overthinking this at the point of starting a thread.

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