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EU - Federal State or Not?


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With the storm in a tea-cup over the exact diplomatic status of the EU’s representatives in the UK, I was trying to remember back to the referendum campaign when there were various arguments about whether the EU intended to become a federal country or not. Does anyone have any links to remainers saying that it didn’t? I’m curious because, for me at least, it’s blindingly obvious that the apparatus of the EU, if not the people that live in it, is 100% committed to it becoming the EUSSR so I’m curious as to what possible counter arguments may have been made.

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Here's George Soros' partialfact.com explaining that ever closer union doesn't mean ever closer union, back in Feb 2016:

https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-ever-closer-union/

 

“Ever closer union” isn’t specifically a call for political union

This expression is of long-standing origin.

It is found in the Preamble to the 1957 treaty that set up what became the EU. On at least six occasions the UK has signed up to it (firstly in becoming a member, and then agreeing to subsequent treaty changes).

So for example, one of the main EU treaties currently refers to:

“the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe, in which decisions are taken as openly as possible and as closely as possible to the citizen”.

 

Notably, the treaties actually say “ever closer union of the peoples” of Europe, not governments. The phrase does not contain the word “political”, and it uses the word “union” with a small u, less suggestive of a formal drive towards a European super-state.

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I'd say that the "an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe" line in the treaty of Rome was fairly unambiguous.

The big failure of the EU project has been to move too fast. If they'd pulled all the same shit they'd tried to pull off in the last 20 years over a period of 60 years then we'd be on rails towards the UK being a region of a federal EU state.

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14 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

I'd say that the "an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe" line in the treaty of Rome was fairly unambiguous.

The big failure of the EU project has been to move too fast. If they'd pulled all the same shit they'd tried to pull off in the last 20 years over a period of 60 years then we'd be on rails towards the UK being a region of a federal EU state.

Just as well that they did rush, imagine being subjected under a Biden clone.

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53 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

I'd say that the "an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe" line in the treaty of Rome was fairly unambiguous.

The big failure of the EU project has been to move too fast. If they'd pulled all the same shit they'd tried to pull off in the last 20 years over a period of 60 years then we'd be on rails towards the UK being a region of a federal EU state.

Agreed. Is just really like to find a quote from Blair or similar claiming that it’s nonsense. It’s hard to use Google to find due to the generic words involved .

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7 hours ago, SpectrumFX said:

I'd say that the "an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe" line in the treaty of Rome was fairly unambiguous.

The big failure of the EU project has been to move too fast. If they'd pulled all the same shit they'd tried to pull off in the last 20 years over a period of 60 years then we'd be on rails towards the UK being a region of a federal EU state.

I wonder if they felt they needed to seize a temporary, brief period of prosperity during which the fault-lines could be concealed. Get everyone locked in, paper over the cracks with cheap borrowing, then when things get bad again ... too late.

I wouldn't normally give the establishment of any country credit for having such foresight (as to realize they were riding a debt-fuelled boom that must inevitably end in bust) but you never know.

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2 hours ago, Lightly Toasted said:

I wonder if they felt they needed to seize a temporary, brief period of prosperity during which the fault-lines could be concealed. Get everyone locked in, paper over the cracks with cheap borrowing, then when things get bad again ... too late.

I wouldn't normally give the establishment of any country credit for having such foresight (as to realize they were riding a debt-fuelled boom that must inevitably end in bust) but you never know.wouldn't normally give the establishment of any country credit for having such foresight (as to realize they were riding a debt-fuelled boom that must inevitably end in bust) but you never know.

They may well be aware but are reckoning the the smelly stuff won't hit the fan until it's someone else's problem.

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9 hours ago, SpectrumFX said:

I'd say that the "an ever closer union of the peoples of Europe" line in the treaty of Rome was fairly unambiguous.

The big failure of the EU project has been to move too fast. If they'd pulled all the same shit they'd tried to pull off in the last 20 years over a period of 60 years then we'd be on rails towards the UK being a region of a federal EU state.

I agree with this. But then no living politician would have got it through in the space of their own career. That's the delicious irony: their own hubris and their pathetic need to create a legacy will actually torpedo the whole project.

Love it.

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4 minutes ago, Bandit Banzai said:

I agree with this. But then no living politician would have got it through in the space of their own career. That's the delicious irony: their own hubris and their pathetic need to create a legacy will actually torpedo the whole project.

Love it.

Macron wants to be the new napoleon but he was not even french .but every Frenchman claims he was . You decide lol

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38 minutes ago, stokiescum said:

Macron wants to be the new napoleon but he was not even french .but every Frenchman claims he was . You decide lol

Well, he was born a year after Corsica became French but he spoke the local language - Corsu - and didn’t learn Frog until he was ten so I’d say not really. Then Hitler wasn’t German but nobody seems to care about that much either. 

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4 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said:

Well, he was born a year after Corsica became French but he spoke the local language - Corsu - and didn’t learn Frog until he was ten so I’d say not really. Then Hitler wasn’t German but nobody seems to care about that much either. 

People don’t care about the truth they learn what they are told .ps wasn’t it the same year has Italy ceded Corsica .basicly me a blue cat agree he was Italian lol

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10 minutes ago, stokiescum said:

People don’t care about the truth they learn what they are told .ps wasn’t it the same year has Italy ceded Corsica .basicly me a blue cat agree he was Italian lol

You’re right, same year - I read a biography a year or so back and must have misremembered. One thing I recall was that, when he first arrived in Paris he was dismissed as some kind of hick foreigner so the French at the time certainly didn’t consider him one of theirs.

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1 minute ago, TheBlueCat said:

You’re right, same year - I read a biography a year or so back and must have misremembered. One thing I recall was that, when he first arrived in Paris he was dismissed as some kind of hick foreigner so the French at the time certainly didn’t consider him one of theirs.

Correct they do now lol

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7 hours ago, Lightly Toasted said:

I wonder if they felt they needed to seize a temporary, brief period of prosperity during which the fault-lines could be concealed. Get everyone locked in, paper over the cracks with cheap borrowing, then when things get bad again ... too late.

I wouldn't normally give the establishment of any country credit for having such foresight (as to realize they were riding a debt-fuelled boom that must inevitably end in bust) but you never know.

With regards the latter, I'm still amazed we got out of 2008 so easily. There's clearly some very smart people behind the scenes, using economic studies not available for public use.

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3 hours ago, Stuey said:

With regards the latter, I'm still amazed we got out of 2008 so easily. There's clearly some very smart people behind the scenes, using economic studies not available for public use.

"Throw the next generation(s) under a bus to pay for it all" is only "smart" from a very narrow perspective.

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41 minutes ago, Alex said:

"Throw the next generation(s) under a bus to pay for it all" is only "smart" from a very narrow perspective.

I know what you mean..

But then the long term is only a series of short terms.

There's plenty of opportunities for young people now if they are willing to relocate. The problem is a majority seem to want the £25k job in a city where they are competing of thousands of other grads.

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21 minutes ago, Lightly Toasted said:

IMO we didn't get out of it :)

Just deferred the reckoning.

Is this what Remainers will be saying in 2034?

(I know this discussion has a history ;) but we can't say the last decade was one of hunger and strife).

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1 minute ago, Stuey said:

Is this what Remainers will be saying in 2034?

(I know this discussion has a history ;) but we can't say the last decade was one of hunger and strife).

If there are Brexit-related, clearly-foreseen fault-lines which have been papered over and which are clearly worse for the UK than remaining would have been, then Remainers will be entitled to say that. :)

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Stuey said:

we can't say the last decade was one of hunger and strife).

It's true that there haven't been famines but the last decade has been uncomfortable economically for most of GenY and Z dealing with real terms pay cuts and arsehole landlords or eyewatering house prices. Even though the 50 plus crowd are doing fine I think economic grinding down is how the 2010s-20s will be remembered, history is written by the winners and demographic turnover guarantees that GenY and GenZ will get the last word in folk memory on what these decades were like to live through.

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8 minutes ago, Darude said:

It's true that there haven't been famines but the last decade has been uncomfortable economically for most of GenY and Z dealing with real terms pay cuts and arsehole landlords or eyewatering house prices. Even though the 50 plus crowd are doing fine I think economic grinding down is how the 2010s-20s will be remembered, history is written by the winners and demographic turnover guarantees that GenY and GenZ will get the last word in folk memory on what these decades were like to live through.

I don't think it is Generations that call history, but that which happens after.

Although we're probably wrong in assuming anyone will be bothered with history anyway, given how anything six months ago is wrong or memoryholed.

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On 22/01/2021 at 14:49, TheBlueCat said:

With the storm in a tea-cup over the exact diplomatic status of the EU’s representatives in the UK, I was trying to remember back to the referendum campaign when there were various arguments about whether the EU intended to become a federal country or not. Does anyone have any links to remainers saying that it didn’t? I’m curious because, for me at least, it’s blindingly obvious that the apparatus of the EU, if not the people that live in it, is 100% committed to it becoming the EUSSR so I’m curious as to what possible counter arguments may have been made.

Does the UK have an Ambassador to the EU?

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49 minutes ago, Happy Renting said:

Does the UK have an Ambassador to the EU?

We do, and that ambassador gets almost exactly the same rights as we're giving to the EU one to the UK (diplomatic immunity, diplomatic passport entry etc). The only difference I can see is that the EU ambassador to the UK doesn't get an audience with the Queen on appointment - hence my storm in a tea-cup point.

That aside, the UK is an actual country, so has an actual ambassador. If the EU isn't a country and has no intention of becoming one - as I'm pretty sure I recall remoaners telling me frequently - then why it would want to have the same status as one in diplomatic terms? Also note that the status given to the EU delegation to the UK is the same as the UK gives to other equivalent bodies (e.g. the International Maritime Organisation).

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56 minutes ago, The Generation Game said:

image.png.a7146a3dbfe8d55800d867408993bb70.png

More like get us all lost permanently in the desert. It is however joyously ironic that, without Soros, we'd likely never have had the referendum in the first place (and would be in the Euro and, like Greece, utterly fucked) and, without Miller, we'd likely have ended up subjugated by the EU under May's surrender treaty.

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