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Frank Hovis

Changing attitudes to drugs

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I'm not saying drugs are 'good', but look around you at the havoc that junk food and alcohol wreak on most of the population of the west.

Whatever the reason for banning getting high in certain ways, it's not because of any real concern for the wellbeing of the population, as most of them are slowly making themselves sicker through too much stress, booze, and junk food.

 

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On D-Day there was a fierce battle between some US paratroopers and some Germans where the US troops, exhausted after being on drugs to keep them awake for days on end, simply all fell asleep exhausted. When they woke up the Germans, thankfully, had retreated and not moved forward and murdered them all.

US cannabis drug companies have seen sky-rocketing share prices in the past year since they began legalising pot. Ditto for Canada with their legalisation still some months away. I have no doubt that some MP's are looking for a big earner by investing in such companies here. Can anyone remind me of the Tory MP who is, allegedly, heavily invested in online porn - not directly of course. That would be unforgiveable. But one can accidentally find oneself investing in companies that invest in companies that... Oooh Matron!

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22 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

I'm not saying drugs are 'good', but look around you at the havoc that junk food and alcohol wreak on most of the population of the west.

Whatever the reason for banning getting high in certain ways, it's not because of any real concern for the wellbeing of the population, as most of them are slowly making themselves sicker through too much stress, booze, and junk food.

 

I don't know, I'd say the effects of drugs are much worse. EG 90%+ of all robberies related to drugs.

In terms of legal highs, you can't legislate against it. Just let the idiots who use them get on with it, frankly. 99.99% of them will be fine and grow out of it.

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4 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

I don't know, I'd say the effects of drugs are much worse. EG 90%+ of all robberies related to drugs.

In terms of legal highs, you can't legislate against it. Just let the idiots who use them get on with it, frankly. 99.99% of them will be fine and grow out of it.

Probably a high correlation with smoking, neglectful parents and Kraft cheese slices. There probably is a correlation but I would imagine a childhood that leaves you predisposed to violent crime also leaves you predisposed to drug abuse, rather than it being directly causative. Also there is a huge variety in the effects of different types of drugs and the people attracted to them. I doubt if smoking a bit of cannabis, maybe doing the odd E and dancing the night away has pushed anyone into a life of violent crime. 

 

In any reasonable comparison of addictive qualities or harm to health cigarettes are worse than any illegal drugs, and the government are happy with that as long as they get the lion's share of the proceeds.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Personally I hugely disapprove and think they wreck loads of lives so this isn't a personal plea for decriminalisation.

That said I find it odd how so many drugs that were perfectly acceptable for a long time are now illegal.

There is the current attempt to ban laughing gas; a staple of late Victorian polite parties.

I was listening to Scott of the Antarctic this week and there was an incidental checking that the men were taking their cocaine and opium.

Those same drugs were sent to troops (more usually officers) in WWI, bought in packs in posh shops designed for just this purpose.

And a hundred years later these are highly illegal and cause vast amounts of associated crime.

How come there was no problem with people of all classes taking them a hundred years ago but now we're not to be trusted with them? It seems really odd.

One of many paradoxes.

Another would be that at no time in human history have we had more access to information, scienctific knowledge, literature, the arts and every other metric we could judge human progress on.

Also, this access to intellectual riches has seen idiocracy in motion, with several generations now more stupid than their parents.

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The period of the early to mid 90's when large numbers of people were taking reasonably good quality E every weekend will prove to be the high point of civilisation in the UK and perhaps the world. It's been downhill ever since :CryBaby:

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46 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

Probably a high correlation with smoking, neglectful parents and Kraft cheese slices. There probably is a correlation but I would imagine a childhood that leaves you predisposed to violent crime also leaves you predisposed to drug abuse, rather than it being directly causative. Also there is a huge variety in the effects of different types of drugs and the people attracted to them. I doubt if smoking a bit of cannabis, maybe doing the odd E and dancing the night away has pushed anyone into a life of violent crime. 

 

In any reasonable comparison of addictive qualities or harm to health cigarettes are worse than any illegal drugs, and the government are happy with that as long as they get the lion's share of the proceeds.

Perhaps, but to be blunt, druggies rob houses to pay for their drugs. All other secondary causes are valid but this is the primary method of harm to society.

The problem I have with cannabis, aside from some smokers risking becoming a completely braindead mong, is that it's a gateway drug to other harder ones.

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1 hour ago, Wahoo said:

The alcohol industry stamps out the competition. And we are excessively controlled by tptb these days.

I guess there's also far more supervision, information and knowledge about what people are doing these days.  Once you know someone does something they might enjoy (accepted there are known dangers and consequences in stuff and some very serious) then they always seem to want to clamp down on that even if there are health benefits in some.  Where there are health benefits that has to be arranged by the health industry and pharmas who make a lot of money out of such things.  Monetisation and financialisation everywhere and removal of spontaneity and independence.

Things like work though - can't get people to aspire to enough of that even at minimum wage.

Edited by twocents

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1 minute ago, spunko2010 said:

The problem I have with cannabis, aside from it making you in a completely braindead mong, is that it's a gateway drug to other harder ones.

Is cannabis addictive?

Yes. Even though in the past cannabis was not thought to be addictive, current evidence now suggests that it can be, particularly if used regularly. Cannabis has the features of addictive drugs such as the development of:

  • tolerance – which means having to take more and more to get the same effect. In heavy users, you can experience withdrawal symptoms such as:
    • craving
    • decreased appetite
    • sleep difficulty
    • weight loss
    • aggression and/or increased irritability
    • irritability
    • restlessness
    • strange dreams.       .

These symptoms of withdrawal produce about the same amount of discomfort as withdrawing from tobacco.

For regular, long-term users:

  • 3 out of 4 experience cravings;
  • half become irritable;
  • 7 out of 10 switch to tobacco in an attempt to stay off cannabis.

The irritability, anxiety and problems with sleeping usually appear 10 hours after the last joint, and peak at around one week after the last use of the drug.

Compulsive use

The user feels they have to have it and spends much of their life seeking, buying and using it. They cannot stop even when other important parts of their life (family, school, work) suffer.

 

You are most likely to become dependent on cannabis if you use it every day.

  • Psychoses - schizophrenia and bipolar disorder

There is now sufficient evidence to show that those who use cannabis particularly at a younger age, such as around the age of 15, have a higher than average risk of developing a psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Education and learning

There have also been suggestions that cannabis may interfere with a person's capacity to:

  • concentrate
  • organise information
  • use information.

This effect seems to last several weeks after use, which can cause particular problems for students.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/cannabis.aspx

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

Personally I hugely disapprove and think they wreck loads of lives so this isn't a personal plea for decriminalisation.

That said I find it odd how so many drugs that were perfectly acceptable for a long time are now illegal.

There is the current attempt to ban laughing gas; a staple of late Victorian polite parties.

I was listening to Scott of the Antarctic this week and there was an incidental checking that the men were taking their cocaine and opium.

Those same drugs were sent to troops (more usually officers) in WWI, bought in packs in posh shops designed for just this purpose.

And a hundred years later these are highly illegal and cause vast amounts of associated crime.

How come there was no problem with people of all classes taking them a hundred years ago but now we're not to be trusted with them? It seems really odd.

Never taken drugs (apart from booze ) and no interest 

Strongly feel that the war on drugs has been a total disaster. 

Legalise , tax and use the money wasted now  to treat drugs as a medical problem and educate the population 

imho would sort many of societies worst problems i.e. Drug gangs , people dying from taking shit sold by the gangs 

the other thing that annoys me is police and government boasting about drug seizures, if they don't reduce the street price then a total waste of time and resources 

check out the current drug war going on in Dublin as to why the gangs main source of profits needs to be removed 

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5 minutes ago, Malthus said:

Never taken drugs (apart from booze ) and no interest 

Strongly feel that the war on drugs has been a total disaster. 

Legalise , tax and use the money wasted now  to treat drugs as a medical problem and educate the population 

imho would sort many of societies worst problems i.e. Drug gangs , people dying from taking shit sold by the gangs 

the other thing that annoys me is police and government boasting about drug seizures, if they don't reduce the street price then a total waste of time and resources 

check out the current drug war going on in Dublin as to why the gangs main source of profits needs to be removed 

Agreed, on balance I think the best route is legalisation.  A duckduckgo search may give the answer why it was perfectly fine and now it isn't.  It feels like the ban came in in a similar manner and at a similar time to US alcohol prohibition and just hasn't been repealed.

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1 hour ago, The Masked Tulip said:

On D-Day there was a fierce battle between some US paratroopers and some Germans where the US troops, exhausted after being on drugs to keep them awake for days on end, simply all fell asleep exhausted. When they woke up the Germans, thankfully, had retreated and not moved forward and murdered them all.

US cannabis drug companies have seen sky-rocketing share prices in the past year since they began legalising pot. Ditto for Canada with their legalisation still some months away. I have no doubt that some MP's are looking for a big earner by investing in such companies here. Can anyone remind me of the Tory MP who is, allegedly, heavily invested in online porn - not directly of course. That would be unforgiveable. But one can accidentally find oneself investing in companies that invest in companies that... Oooh Matron!

Presumably that means legalising for use in pills under prescription - as you mention pharma share prices - rather than legalised for buying the raw product over the counter - or does it maybe mean both.

I imagine if people want to use something for health benefits they would prefer to use the raw product and also get some possible enjoyment out of it rather than using a pill but the raw product option is usually kept from them in the interests of control plus drug company profits as well as taxation.

I've seen a few references recently about US troops still being issued with drugs for battle endurance and stress and so on - I don't know how true it actually is in reality.  If so then I imagine the pharmas recommend their use in those circumstances.

Edited by twocents

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41 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Perhaps, but to be blunt, druggies rob houses to pay for their drugs. All other secondary causes are valid but this is the primary method of harm to society.

The problem I have with cannabis, aside from some smokers risking becoming a completely braindead mong, is that it's a gateway drug to other harder ones.

The vast majority of druggies don't rob houses.

Cannabis is only a "gateway drug" because of the current legal framework. If you bought it on the supermarket shelf next to a packet of hobnobs it wouldn't have any association with other "harder drugs" (by which I mean opiates and amphetamines).

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Just now, Hail the Tripod said:

The vast majority of druggies don't rob houses.

Cannabis is only a "gateway drug" because of the current legal framework. If you bought it on the supermarket shelf next to a packet of hobnobs it wouldn't have any association with other "harder drugs" (by which I mean opiates and amphetamines).

Not all druggies commit burglary, but most burglaries are committed by druggies! o.O

Leave hobnobs alone!

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41 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

Is cannabis addictive?

Yes. Even though in the past cannabis was not thought to be addictive, current evidence now suggests that it can be, particularly if used regularly. Cannabis has the features of addictive drugs such as the development of:

  • tolerance – which means having to take more and more to get the same effect. In heavy users, you can experience withdrawal symptoms such as:
    • craving
    • decreased appetite
    • sleep difficulty
    • weight loss
    • aggression and/or increased irritability
    • irritability
    • restlessness
    • strange dreams.       .

These symptoms of withdrawal produce about the same amount of discomfort as withdrawing from tobacco.

For regular, long-term users:

  • 3 out of 4 experience cravings;
  • half become irritable;
  • 7 out of 10 switch to tobacco in an attempt to stay off cannabis.

The irritability, anxiety and problems with sleeping usually appear 10 hours after the last joint, and peak at around one week after the last use of the drug.

Compulsive use

The user feels they have to have it and spends much of their life seeking, buying and using it. They cannot stop even when other important parts of their life (family, school, work) suffer.

 

You are most likely to become dependent on cannabis if you use it every day.

  • Psychoses - schizophrenia and bipolar disorder

There is now sufficient evidence to show that those who use cannabis particularly at a younger age, such as around the age of 15, have a higher than average risk of developing a psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

Education and learning

There have also been suggestions that cannabis may interfere with a person's capacity to:

  • concentrate
  • organise information
  • use information.

This effect seems to last several weeks after use, which can cause particular problems for students.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/cannabis.aspx

Having been a smoker and a regular cannabis user at various times when younger (no cannabis in about 10 years and no tobacco in the last 5), I would have to say this is completely at odds with my experience.

Just now, spunko2010 said:

Not all druggies commit burglary, but most burglaries are committed by druggies! o.O

Leave hobnobs alone!

Now you're sounding like a feminist: "Mostly men commit burglaries, men are the problem."

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1 minute ago, Hail the Tripod said:
1 minute ago, spunko2010 said:

 

Now you're sounding like a feminist: "Mostly men commit burglaries, men are the problem."

If we took drugs out of the system entirely, however impractical that is, I'd feel safer in my house at night. I know that much!

Having smoked cannabis for a couple of years, on and off, was never a heavy user, but ditched it because it started to make me paranoid. I'm not sure on the legality debate, I see pros and cons, and they've all been debated ad nauseum anyway.

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2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Personally I hugely disapprove and think they wreck loads of lives so this isn't a personal plea for decriminalisation.

That said I find it odd how so many drugs that were perfectly acceptable for a long time are now illegal.

There is the current attempt to ban laughing gas; a staple of late Victorian polite parties.

I was listening to Scott of the Antarctic this week and there was an incidental checking that the men were taking their cocaine and opium.

Those same drugs were sent to troops (more usually officers) in WWI, bought in packs in posh shops designed for just this purpose.

And a hundred years later these are highly illegal and cause vast amounts of associated crime.

How come there was no problem with people of all classes taking them a hundred years ago but now we're not to be trusted with them? It seems really odd.

Maybe a hundred years ago junkies never caused so much harm to society? A rich junkie wouldn't really bother anyone as he sat in his mansion injecting. While a poor junkie would probably die quite soon from sleeping rough or being hung for committing crime..

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47 minutes ago, twocents said:

Presumably that means legalising for use in pills under prescription - as you mention pharma share prices - rather than legalised for buying the raw product over the counter - or does it maybe mean both.

I imagine if people want to use something for health benefits they would prefer to use the raw product and also get some possible enjoyment out of it rather than using a pill but the raw product option is usually kept from them in the interests of control plus drug company profits as well as taxation.

I've seen a few references recently about US troops still being issued with drugs for battle endurance and stress and so on - I don't know how true it actually is in reality.  If so then I imagine the pharmas recommend their use in those circumstances.

 

Nope, you can buy pot over the counter now in several US states - Colorado being the one which seems to have gone big down this route and other US states have foloowed.

Canada is doing likewise later this year or early next year.

https://www.coloradopotguide.com/marijuana-laws-in-colorado/

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5 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

 

Nope, you can buy pot over the counter now in several US states - Colorado being the one which seems to have gone big down this route and other US states have foloowed.

Canada is doing likewise later this year or early next year.

https://www.coloradopotguide.com/marijuana-laws-in-colorado/

Thanks for clarifying it means both.  So they'll get more product sales and more taxes all under an official umbrella.

I guess the principle of what happens in the US eventually comes to the UK will still apply but in this case it might take along time.

Edited by twocents

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25 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

 

Nope, you can buy pot over the counter now in several US states - Colorado being the one which seems to have gone big down this route and other US states have foloowed.

Canada is doing likewise later this year or early next year.

https://www.coloradopotguide.com/marijuana-laws-in-colorado/

Colorado has hot summers but cold winters - colder than here!  Where is the legal cannabis grown, is it overseas? Google doesn't seem to say. If so, it's still creating the same issues that illegal drugs create in those countries. What I've always found a bit odd is the sympathy from illicit hard drug users never seems to extend to anyone other than themselves and their woe is me attitude. They don't give a hoot about the people caught up in the exploitation and gangs on the other side of the world where their drug is grown and that they are supporting. Bit strange. 

There seems to be a completely coincidental article in the DM today about all this.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840100/Zombie-drug-spice-takes-Lincoln.html#

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7 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Colorado has hot summers but cold winters - colder than here!  Where is the legal cannabis grown, is it overseas? Google doesn't seem to say. If so, it's still creating the same issues that illegal drugs create in those countries. What I've always found a bit odd is the sympathy from illicit hard drug users never seems to extend to anyone other than themselves and their woe is me attitude. They don't give a hoot about the people caught up in the exploitation and gangs on the other side of the world where their drug is grown and that they are supporting. Bit strange. 

There seems to be a completely coincidental article in the DM today about all this.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840100/Zombie-drug-spice-takes-Lincoln.html#

I think these days, Oregon and California mostly.

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