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The Pro Vaccine Argument


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JoeDavola

So when I saw this on redit:

 

I had a wee skim through it and came to a post from someone who says that they have put 100 hours of research into this due to a skepticism as to the safety of mRNA vaccines. The result of this is posted below.

Please only respond if you've actually read it and have an opinion as to whether it's bollocks or not!

I still don't want to get jabbed every 6 / 12 months, but I wonder does this change anyone's mind as to whether the vaccines will be harmful in the long run.

Here's his post:

Back in 2020, before I spent a bunch of time (probably 100+ hours now) reading about how all the components of mRNA vaccines work (and J&J and AZ and other vaccines over history), my preference was definitely for traditional vaccine forms (with J&J being often referred to), at least until solid safety data had time to come out for the newer approaches. Being part of an early phase trial was not for me.

I started doing deep dives to understand them better once some were already approved and it looked like in a few months time I might have a choice to make. At that point there was also a lot more actual data to look at from trials around the world, as well as real world data from large deployments in places like Israel,.

Here's probably the three biggest things that made me change first choice to an mRNA vaccine (from originally being my last choice):

edit: I realized this got a lot longer than intended, but it does describe my the steps of my own research over the last few months and how that addressed my main concerns. Yesterday I found this 4 minute YT video which covers a lot of in summary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOvvyqJ-vwo but if you want something a little more in depth, feel free to come and read the rest of my reply!

  1. mRNA, which is a list of amino acids to attach in a specified order, are being processed by the cells of our body constantly. And not only our own mRNA, but tons of foreign mRNA from viruses. That's how viruses reproduce, and when we're infected with the common cold, the flu, or SARS-CoV-2, there are billions or trillions of foreign mRNA strands making our cells produce proteins (to manufacture more virus).

So having foreign mRNA introduced by the vaccine isn't the first time our body is seeing something like this, it's been routine for our entire lives. Unlike with a virus, the vaccine doesn't self-replicate, so all the vaccine mRNA in our body is gone within a few hours to days. In the end, all that remains in the body is our memory B cells. Where did the mRNA in the vaccine come from? It's literally a section of mRNA from the virus, but JUST for the portion for the spike protein (but made inert, see my P.S. later if details on that).

Realizing that foreign mRNA from a vaccine wasn't a unique first-time in humanity experience for the human body (with thus unknowable outcomes) like I had originally thought, but instead something that happens regularly and likely has already happened trillions of trillions of times already in my own body, helped make me comfortable with this aspect.

2) mRNA is like a linear recipe sheet, which makes it easy to reliably rapidly, reliably and consistently reproduce. Much more so than traditional vaccines (live-attenuated, inactivated, and protein subunit) which are widely used and considered safe. Those methods work, but if you research the actual steps to produce them (vs mRNA), you end up seeing they have as many as 10-20 additional steps which each take time, hard to obtain materials, and require careful quality control. A lot of the delay and difficulty in making working & safe traditional vaccines comes from the various problems that can occur on all these additional steps. A lot of those problems simply can't happen with the much simpler mRNA process.

Additionally, the more complex part -- making a protein -- is left to our cells, which are experts at getting it right.

This is all part of why mRNA vaccines were able to be produced so quickly -- it's a much simpler process with less places for mistakes. It's simplicity also means less variations need to be tested in clinical trials, for example protein subunit vaccines often need to be tested with different levels and types of adjuvants (immune response boosters) to get it tuned right, which adds a lot of time and complexity to the clinical trials (i.e. years of delay). Speaking of what adds delays, many previous vaccine efforts have also been delayed by the outbreak of the disease dying down before trials could be done.

3) The delivery mechanism, lipid nanoparticles (LNPs) are envelopes of mostly fat that protect the mRNA and help it be taken into the cell. LNPs seem new too, but there's already a drug that was FDA-approved (through the normal slow process) in 2018 that uses LNPs. The fats (lipids) are pretty uncontroversial, but I was concerned about another ingredient, polyethylene glycol (PEG). I found a previous FDA approved LNP also used PEG and was found safe. Not only that, but PEG is actually the main ingredient in MiraLAX, an over-the-counter laxative you can buy at any Walgreens, CVS, supermarket etc and take in mass quantities with no issues. Learning this helped make me comfortable with the delivery method.

4) OK, I said three, but also the real world data really says a lot about how theory meets the road. We've had tens of thousands of people who've read it for almost a year now, tens of millions of 3+ months, and hundreds of millions for 8+ weeks. In researching the history of problems with previous vaccines in the last 100 years, the problems have always emerged within 8 weeks (usually in <4 weeks). So if there's even rare problems, we would have had plenty of time to see them by now. See for example the rare blood clotting concern with AZ/J&J -- if they occur (very rare), they occur within the first 3 weeks. Simply seeing that hundreds of millions of people have taken it safely and that we're well past the window of when we would see issues, has added a lot of confidence for me.

Ultimately is it possible that there's some extremely rare unknown side effect that we haven't seen yet? Yes, it's possible, but it seems exceedingly unlikely at this point, and if it does end up being the case, you know a lot of top minds are going to be working on it. Meanwhile we're still discovering new and not understood, often long-term side-effects of COVID (long COVID), and the odds of them are dramatically higher in comparison (perhaps as many as 1 in 10 symptomatic cases -- even mild ones).

There's no zero risk option, but after learning all these things, I decided that even as a relatively young person with no health problems, my risks were much lower with a vaccine than with COVID. And of the vaccines, I felt like the mRNA vaccines are actually the safest, and any unknown risk about them is much smaller than even just the difference in efficacy between J&J and Pfizer/Moderna (which is why in the end, I went from thinking I wanted J&J as my first choice, to J&J being my last choice).

I know a lot of people just made their decision by looking at the efficacy numbers, but I've always leaned towards the precautionary-principle side so I wanted to know more.

P.S (mentioned in #1) Interestingly, part of what makes the spike protein able to pull the virus into your cell is a physical "spring" & reeling-in motion that the protein makes when it attaches to your cell, kind of like a harpoon & fishing line. You can see a crazy animation of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Qi-hAXdJo

In the vaccine, two amino acids that make the "spring" joint springy have been replaced with another amino acid that can't spring. This keeps the spike protein its same shape -- which is what antibodies learn to match -- but makes it inert so it can't actually cross cell membranes (or the blood-brain barrier -- which the real COVID spike can potentially cross). Moreover, this teaches our immune cell better, because all the spike examples for learning to generate antibodies are in this pre-sprung (I learned it's called "prefusion") shape, rather than its already sprung "post-fusion" shape.

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Nobody yet knows the long term safety (or otherwise) of these new vaccines. If you are really vulnerable then get jabbed, if you are not really vulnerable then you can simply wait for the long te

The mRNA technology in itself if probably rather safe.  I'd suggest probably safer than traditional vaccines. The lipid shell might introduce some minor allergic effects.  This isn't a problem wi

There's always risk in whatever you do. What we've got with the "should I be vaccinated" question is a classic case of decision making from a position of uncertainty. I've got a lung condition, s

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Funn3r

I read it all as far as I could but as usual my eyes just glazed over. I don't have the background to understand this level of microbiology let alone critically verify it. It's like me trying to explain cross-site scripting to my dog.

Intuitively it just seems obvious that a novel vaccine needs long-term trials and there is just no legitimate short cut. No matter how much money and warp speed you throw in you can't make a baby in less than nine months.

Speaking of babies I would care to bet that Thalidomide was never properly tested. I am sure they were full of scientits (sic) who had statistics "proving" there was no need for longer trials, as what could possibly go wrong anyway with this fully-understood technology.

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Soft lad
Posted (edited)

This is a medcram video that explains a bit about vaccines

 

Edited by Soft lad
forgot to put link in
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fishman
3 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

No matter how much money and warp speed you throw in you can't make a baby in less than nine months.

9 people, 1 month - have you not studied project management?

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Stuey

It also gives the 40-60% who were still massively scared the confidence to get back out there. Some people seem to have forgotten what this forum was like in Feb/March 2020..

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BoSon
6 minutes ago, Stuey said:

It also gives the 40-60% who were still massively scared the confidence to get back out there. Some people seem to have forgotten what this forum was like in Feb/March 2020..

If they are scared while not being truly vulnerable then a placebo vaccine would be safer.

As someone who self-identifies as not vulnerable to covid I see it as very low risk (but not zero risk) and the vaccines also, so easy for me to avoid both while I'm living in a low covid case history part of the UK. If I was in London or some other covid rife shithole I'd be more bothered about covid and whether to take the albeit small risk of a vaccine.

Both covid and the vaccine are low risk to the majority and it's the lack of evidence to be sure just how low that risk is on an individual basis that means it's prudent to be cautious as you can't be sure how bad either will be until it's in your system and then it may be too late.

I like how some of the so called experts are now saying it's immoral to give the vaccine to the non-vulnerable (in the context of the young but also applies to healthy older people) while there are vulnerable in poor areas or countries that need it more urgently. So for now I'm happy to defer my right to a vaccine and let it go to someone else who wants it. If I walk around my garden a bit will they make me a saint? xD

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Carl Fimble

Here's all the argument needed "You'll get to go on holiday", but if you need more than that, there's a free donut, a beer, a joint, a burger and chips, and a lottery ticket. 

 

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norfolkhorn

The reddit 'researcher' says that the spike protein cannot cross the blood brain barrier (no idea if this is true or not) but the Vaccine is causing rare blood clots in the brain so presumably the mrna vector is crossing the BBB if the spike protein is not? If so fairly irrelevant that the spike protein isn't? Also the fact that PEG is safe as a laxative does not mean it is safe to be injected in the body. 

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MrLibertyRedux
15 minutes ago, Carl Fimble said:

Here's all the argument needed "You'll get to go on holiday", but if you need more than that, there's a free donut, a beer, a joint, a burger and chips, and a lottery ticket. 

 

Wot wot wot? No one mentioned free weed and beer. Jab me Seymour.

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Carl Fimble
Just now, MrLibertyRedux said:

Wot wot wot? No one mentioned free weed and beer. Jab me Seymour.

It's only one beer and one joint, and I think you'd have to go to the US to claim them. 

I'm holding out for the deal to be even sweeter, I reckon if I can hold out long enough I'll be able to claim a case of beer and a half quarter, or more even!

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Austin Allegro
1 minute ago, Bornagain said:

Nobody yet knows the long term safety (or otherwise) of these new vaccines.

If you are really vulnerable then get jabbed, if you are not really vulnerable then you can simply wait for the long term jury to give a verdict.

I am a fit, healthy 55 yr old and my preferred option is a natural infection and hence natural immunity, if I don't get Covid in (say) the next 15 yrs then I will get myself jabbed before getting vulnerable due to age.

I am at a much higher risk of dying of a cancer than Covid but we all seem to have stopped worrying about the really dangerous stuff and are focussing on things that are really unlikely to kill us..it's a crazy world that we are living in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My thoughts exactly. Of course if you say that you'll get someone whining 'but you need to do it to protect others!'
The 'others' should have the jab if they need it and if they are still scared, they should stay at home and wear a mask at all times, etc. Not start lecturing others.  The chance of getting, much less dying of the Rona is so small that by that logic all driving should be banned in case somebody is run over.

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Chewing Grass
7 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

I am at a much higher risk of dying of a cancer than Covid but we all seem to have stopped worrying about the really dangerous stuff and are focussing on things that are really unlikely to kill us..it's a crazy world that we are living in.

All the propaganda has distorted risk, at 55 across the entire population you have approximately 5x the chance of contracting Cancer (every year) than being finished off with Cv19 and that is ignoring the fact that the Cv risks can be managed.

1186140535_Screenshotfrom2021-05-1817-08-33.png.0d5985ce4dc701900c0016b4367ff352.png

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dgul
25 minutes ago, norfolkhorn said:

The reddit 'researcher' says that the spike protein cannot cross the blood brain barrier (no idea if this is true or not) but the Vaccine is causing rare blood clots in the brain so presumably the mrna vector is crossing the BBB if the spike protein is not? If so fairly irrelevant that the spike protein isn't? Also the fact that PEG is safe as a laxative does not mean it is safe to be injected in the body. 

Blood clots in the brain exist on the blood side of the blood-brain barrier. 

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stokiescum
4 hours ago, Stuey said:

It also gives the 40-60% who were still massively scared the confidence to get back out there. Some people seem to have forgotten what this forum was like in Feb/March 2020..

Yea I was doing 12 hours escort duty shifts at north staffs or Macclesfield hospital they were riddled with it and all our black staff refused to go.we whites dubbed it operation meat shield

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Siggy
4 hours ago, McKay said:

He has no risk from Covid, he’s wasted his 100 hours, thick prick that he is. 

Hit the nail squarely on the head with that comment!

He should have spent the first few hours trying to establish if there was a risk that needed mitigating.  There's only just a vague reference to long covid in his comments and that really is not good enough. 0/10 must try harder. 

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the gardener
1 hour ago, norfolkhorn said:

The reddit 'researcher' says that the spike protein cannot cross the blood brain barrier (no idea if this is true or not) but the Vaccine is causing rare blood clots in the brain so presumably the mrna vector is crossing the BBB if the spike protein is not? If so fairly irrelevant that the spike protein isn't? Also the fact that PEG is safe as a laxative does not mean it is safe to be injected in the body. 

Absolutely. That whole article read like it was designed from the outset to encourage people to take the vaccine. Pure propaganda.

Tbh, as soon as I read 'deep dive'  that told me all I needed to know. Everyone I know who has ever used that expression, I would not trust to sit the right way on a toilet.

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norfolkhorn
2 minutes ago, the gardener said:

Absolutely. That whole article read like it was designed from the outset to encourage people to take the vaccine. Pure propaganda.

Tbh, as soon as I read 'deep dive'  that told me all I needed to know. Everyone I know who has ever used that expression, I would not trust to sit the right way on a toilet.

Although dgul has corrected my point on the blood brain barrier (I've looked it up and understand it better now) , it still reads to me as 'it doesn't get into the brain and so can't affect it'. I also can't believe someone would go that far into the science in order to make a decision about whether to take it or not. You just need to look at the side effect incidence, not understand why they are happening. 

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dgul
1 minute ago, norfolkhorn said:

Although dgul has corrected my point on the blood brain barrier (I've looked it up and understand it better now) , it still reads to me as 'it doesn't get into the brain and so can't affect it'. I also can't believe someone would go that far into the science in order to make a decision about whether to take it or not. You just need to look at the side effect incidence, not understand why they are happening. 

Oh, I'm not saying that there isn't either vaccine stuff or covid virus that gets the other side of the blood brain barrier.

Both quite possibly do, to a certain extent.  It might explain some of the central/nervous effects that are being seen.

Of course, once viruses (etc) get the other side of the blood brain barrier there's a whole new immune system to consider (sort of).

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Van Lady
8 minutes ago, dgul said:

I am currently very distrustful of anyone that mentions 'long covid'.

It is a meaningless thing.  Something we know nothing about.  It it invoked because it is the unknown.

It reminds me very much of Covid last March.  Covid then was an unknown thing, possibly killing off people as they walked down the street, and certainly leading to certain doom for anyone on a cruise ship.

Then facts became known.  Who was most vulnerable.  Who wasn't vulnerable.  Timescales, indicators, treatments, risks, prophyactics, etc.  Covid became less scary through being at least partly known.

And then along comes long covid.  A condition that is terrible and terrifying, that puts 1 in 10 (or something) of those who get covid at all (or something) under certain lifelong pain or disability (or something). 

It might be considered strange that no-one I know who has had covid (all of whom survived without hospitalisation, most of whom hardly noticed) has any sign at all of long covid.  But then that's irrelevant and should be ignored because 1:10 people get long covid!

I just think it is the new unknown thing to make everyone scared.  Whether that's government's doing or just the media whipping up a frenzy, I don't know (probably a bit of both).

A percentage of people who get flu, any virus or indeed any vaccination suffer from short, mid, long term or lifelong after effect debilitating symptoms.

It’s nothing new. Long Covid is scaremongering, well currently, unless evidence shows that it has a high incidence of long term debilitation in otherwise healthy people who are slim, eat a nourishing/avoiding additives diet and exercise.

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