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EVs in the real world - just don't


Frank Hovis
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Bricks & Mortar
6 minutes ago, markyh said:

I wish them luck, but don't expect this to ever get to mass production at a reasonable price. It might be for the ULtra greens only willing to pay Tesla money for a odd solar hatchback. 

It's a basic, mini-size car, made from other manufacturers parts, with some solar panels about the only additional thing.    25K Euro inc German VAT, before any government subsidies, as quoted by the ceo in the video.  
Cheaper than a Leaf or a Zoe.

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1 minute ago, Bricks & Mortar said:

It's a basic, mini-size car, made from other manufacturers parts, with some solar panels about the only additional thing.    25K Euro inc German VAT, before any government subsidies, as quoted by the ceo in the video.  
Cheaper than a Leaf or a Zoe.

Like i say, i wish then luck, i own a big pot of Tesla shares, i wont be investing in this company, i just cant see it scaling, 

Put the solar on your house and store an excess in home batteries. 

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On 14/01/2022 at 13:12, markyh said:

Put the solar on your house and store an excess in home batteries. 

what sort of system and capacities did you go for out of interest? I know I take the piss out of Teslas but I am actually a big fan of tech, I just don't like the 'car angle' at the mo, ebikes are different.....

Edited by nirvana
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28 minutes ago, nirvana said:

what sort of system and capacities did you go for out of interest? I know I take the piss out of Teslas but I am actually a big fan of tech, I just don't like the 'car angle' at the mo, ebikes are different.....

I have 4.2kw of Solar installed in 2019 to catch the end of FIT , SolarEdge HD, so microinvertors on each panel . Very efficient. 

Have a one of my EV chargers as a Zappi, which can divert excess solar to charge an EV if plugged in, also has a wifi sister unit call a Eddi which is a solar water heater diverter, which takes priority over the car.  So if solar can be used 100% by the house it does, if not, it gets diverted to heat the hot water by powering the immersion boiler until hot enough, when thats done it charges the car. 

Now phase two is being costed. Batteries.  This is a winter thing not summer, any extra excess in high summer above the top setup will go into the batteries. So we should have 100% Solar use and zero export (although we claim 50% "deemed export" for every kwh generated under fit rules. Money for mothing. 

Batteries being considered are

3kw import / export and 12kwh batteries

6kw import export and 16kwh batteries

6kw import export and 24 kwh batteries

Each will have an option for either emergency supply to 2 dedicated sockets , or whole house power from batteries switchover in blackouts.  Will weigh up the cost difference

Now why winter? Very little Solar November to Feb but highest leccy use in the year due to cold/ dark. EV tarrif Octopus Go. Currently  13.45p 4.30am-12.30am , 5p kwh 12.30am-4.30am.  Used to charge EV's cheap 4hrs a night. 

But, this is rising in April to 30p kwh day, and 7.5p kwh 4 hrs a night. Huge jump. 

So the batteries (estimate £10k at the top end) will be set up to "import" every night on the 7.5p / kwh rate either 12kwh (3kw x 4hrs) , 16kwh (4kw x 4 hrs) or 24kwh (6kw x 4 hrs).  

This will then be used in winter to power the house 4.30am-12.30am during the 30pkwh period, saving a net 22.5p/kwh for each unit of leccy stored. 

Now, i have lots of savvy monitoring tech on my home solar/ leccy (google Geo Solo 3) and can tell you during December 21 , we consumed 650kwh of leccy on the daytime rates going up to 30p kwh. 

In theory and 24kwh battery system could offset 744 kwh of day use over 31 days.  So if all 650kwh where offset @ 7.5p kwh in December 2022 , the saving that month alone is £146!!! 

If you have the money, the tech is here now, payback for batteries now look under 5 years, and like the solar that will payback 50% quicker in 2022 now, one they are all paid after 5yrs, its all Gravy , as they say. 

And we will have some/ full power in and coming blackouts for future winters. A house full of lights and internet in a village in darkness! 

Also adding an extra new 3-4 panel simple solar system to east facing garage roof, the wheeze is, "if you install a "solar system" with a batteries install, you save the 20% VAT on the solar, and the batteries. If you add the battereis alone, you pay the 20% VAT. 

So say £3k of new small solar saves 20% on £10k of batteries, so nearly "free" of extra generation, which, you will have the batteries to store any excess in summer too. 

Sometimes having a bit of wealth really helps avoid what life throws at you.  

 

 

Edited by markyh
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55 minutes ago, markyh said:

I have 4.2kw of Solar installed in 2019 to catch the end of FIT , SolarEdge HD, so microinvertors on each panel . Very efficient. 

Have a one of my EV chargers as a Zappi, which can divert excess solar to charge an EV if plugged in, also has a wifi sister unit call a Eddi which is a solar water heater diverter, which takes priority over the car.  So if solar can be used 100% by the house it does, if not, it gets diverted to heat the hot water by powering the immersion boiler until hot enough, when thats done it charges the car. 

Now phase two is being costed. Batteries.  This is a winter thing not summer, any extra excess in high summer above the top setup will go into the batteries. So we should have 100% Solar use and zero export (although we claim 50% "deemed export" for every kwh generated under fit rules. Money for mothing. 

Batteries being considered are

3kw import / export and 12kwh batteries

6kw import export and 16kwh batteries

6kw import export and 24 kwh batteries

Each will have an option for either emergency supply to 2 dedicated sockets , or whole house power from batteries switchover in blackouts.  Will weigh up the cost difference

Now why winter? Very little Solar November to Feb but highest leccy use in the year due to cold/ dark. EV tarrif Octopus Go. Currently  13.45p 4.30am-12.30am , 5p kwh 12.30am-4.30am.  Used to charge EV's cheap 4hrs a night. 

But, this is rising in April to 30p kwh day, and 7.5p kwh 4 hrs a night. Huge jump. 

So the batteries (estimate £10k at the top end) will be set up to "import" every night on the 7.5p / kwh rate either 12kwh (3kw x 4hrs) , 16kwh (4kw x 4 hrs) or 24kwh (6kw x 4 hrs).  

This will then be used in winter to power the house 4.30am-12.30am during the 30pkwh period, saving a net 22.5p/kwh for each unit of leccy stored. 

Now, i have lots of savvy monitoring tech on my home solar/ leccy (google Geo Solo 3) and can tell you during December 21 , we consumed 650kwh of leccy on the daytime rates going up to 30p kwh. 

In theory and 24kwh battery system could offset 744 kwh of day use over 31 days.  So if all 650kwh where offset @ 7.5p kwh in December 2022 , the saving that month alone is £146!!! 

If you have the money, the tech is here now, payback for batteries now look under 5 years, and like the solar that will payback 50% quicker in 2022 now, one they are all paid after 5yrs, its all Gravy , as they say. 

And we will have some/ full power in and coming blackouts for future winters. A house full of lights and internet in a village in darkness! 

Also adding an extra new 3-4 panel simple solar system to east facing garage roof, the wheeze is, "if you install a "solar system" with a batteries install, you save the 20% VAT on the solar, and the batteries. If you add the battereis alone, you pay the 20% VAT. 

So say £3k of new small solar saves 20% on £10k of batteries, so nearly "free" of extra generation, which, you will have the batteries to store any excess in summer too. 

Sometimes having a bit of wealth really helps avoid what life throws at you.  

 

 

That was a genuinely informative post.

Shame about the inevitable stealth brag at the end though...

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1 hour ago, markyh said:

3kw import / export and 12kwh batteries

as in you import 3kw on those every night? Batteries are interesting with LifePO4s you can drain the fuk out of em, with trad lead it's only 50% drain.....the chinky prices are looking interesting now, UK VAT is irrelevant to me

how many watt/hours can you pull in from the grid? it's quite an interesting idea to pull it in on cheap rates over the winter, once spring arrives you should be able to live off solar alone hopefully

Edited by nirvana
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18 minutes ago, nirvana said:

as in you import 3kw on those every night? Batteries are interesting with LifePO4s you can drain the fuk out of em, with trad lead it's only 50% drain.....the chinky prices are looking interesting now, UK VAT is irrelevant to me

how many watt/hours can you pull in from the grid? it's quite an interesting idea to pull it in on cheap rates over the winter, once spring arrives you should be able to live off solar alone hopefully

Yes pull 3kw through the battery invertor to the batteries over the 4 hrs. 4hrs @ 3kw = 12kwh.  Then export it to the house at a max 3kw draw during the day. 

The "limit" is the same as the Solar limit without DNO approval, 16amps, which is 3.7kw @ 230v roughly.  Hence why 90% of battery storage invertors are limited to 3kw throughput. 

As i am already at the 3.7kw limit with my solar my installer HAS to get me DNO approval for more solar and batteries. Wont be an issue as we are still in the early adaptor stage.  Hence why i an considering a special 6kw though put battery invertor, pull twice as much into batteries overnight and could run the house and charge the car up to 6kw from batterie

s and cheap stored leccy / free solar, before the grid makes up the difference. 

A 32amp EV charger draws about 7kw. As Rod Stewert once said, money doesn't make you happy, but lets you be unhappy in much nicer surroundings!

28 minutes ago, Don Coglione said:

That was a genuinely informative post.

Shame about the inevitable stealth brag at the end though...

Edited by markyh
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20 minutes ago, markyh said:

The "limit" is the same as the Solar limit without DNO approval

never heard of this DNO stuff before....I take it you'll never get a Tesla supercharge at a house cos it needs too many amps?

what's your monthly leccy bill down to? and how many kWh do you consume in a month?

cheers!

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2 hours ago, nirvana said:

never heard of this DNO stuff before....I take it you'll never get a Tesla supercharge at a house cos it needs too many amps?

what's your monthly leccy bill down to? and how many kWh do you consume in a month?

cheers!

DNO = Domestic Network Operator.   Basically you can't even upgrade the main fuse to your house with their approval , they are responsible for all the wiring in your local area from main transformers to substations to your main incoming fuse box basically. 

2021 data, lets see ;

Consumed 12366 kwh , so about 1030 kwh a month

Imported from the Grid , 9979 kwh

Solar Generated 3880 kwh 

Solar Self use 2409 kwh 

Solar exported to the grid 1472 kwh 

Combined 2021 savings including own solar use and Fit payments , hot water heating etc about £60 a month.  That will be much higher from April once the batteries are agreed and installed. 

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8 hours ago, markyh said:

 So we should have 100% Solar use and zero export (although we claim 50% "deemed export" for every kwh generated under fit rules. Money for mothing. 
 

Just to let you know over here in NI, the export was flat rate, initially 50% but about 2 or so years ago went to actual export. Screwed the dump everything excess into the immersion brigade. Usually trial stuff out here to do in GB later.

On batteries, I started off with 4.8kwh but found the next level up would allow me to use the immersion. 9.6kw of batteries allowed 3kw output instead of 2. Ended up adding in a cheap ashp to use from about March to October to cut down on oil heating bills.

Ive more than doubled my electricity consumption since installing the batteries (moved to electric lawnmower etc, make my own beer in batches, cook/freeze in batches for winter, use dehydrator to dry summer herbs/veg/fruit etc, hot tub).
Export is 4p but just got my new electricity bill (-9 quid, 50 quid sign on bonus!) and its 22p +vat.

Edited by belfastchild
added ni bit
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1 hour ago, nirvana said:

can't edit the above but......

@markyhyou said you consumed 650kwh of leccy in Dec 21 so your leccy consumption is varying a lot from month to month by the looks of it???

No, 650kwh between 4.30am and 12.30am , day rates, plus another 337kwh over night between 12.30am and 4.30pm. 

So 987kwh in December, bit below the mean average.  EV's not used a lot in December and at least 10 days are the Xmas / New year period where no work or school so little car use. 

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