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Death by Covid manslaughter


spunko
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Just to clarify, I am not defending the scummy Algerian. Fine and deport if found guilty would be my preference. But as ever I am finding myself wondering about the precedent here regarding personal responsibility.

 

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King Penda
27 minutes ago, spunko said:

Just to clarify, I am not defending the scummy Algerian. Fine and deport if found guilty would be my preference. But as ever I am finding myself wondering about the precedent here regarding personal responsibility.

 

Fucking hell . On the other hand if I was responsible for sending people from hospital with Covid into a carehome where there was none I’d be watching this case with a twitchy arse

Edited by King Penda
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Bornagain

This sets a very dangerous precedent.

You buy somebody a piece of cake.

Some years later he dies of a heart attack.

You are charged with manslaughter.

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Lightly Toasted
6 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

This sets a very dangerous precedent.

You buy somebody a piece of cake.

Some years later he dies of a heart attack.

You are charged with manslaughter.

Except they ate the cake voluntarily.

How about: you chase someone brandishing a hammer; they run onto the road and get fatally knocked down. Seems to me you could be on the hook for manslaughter. The "covid in hospital" consequence is less direct but the chain of causation leading to death is directly comparable.

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Hail the Tripod

There are lots of dodgy decisions like this that have extended criminal culpability. 

Quote

The case of R v Golding [2014] EWCA Crim 889 raised the issue of whether genital herpes could be described as "really serious bodily harm" so as to come within section 20 of the Act. The appellant did not disclose his diagnosis of genital herpes to the victim which he passed on to her. The Court found that Mr Golding understood both that he had the infection and how it is transmitted, and by not preventing transmission - or disclosing his condition thereby allowing the complainant to make an informed decision whether or not she wanted to risk acquiring herpes - was guilty of reckless grievous bodily harm under Section 20. 

You have to wonder how Golding is any more culpable than whoever gave it to him, or whoever gave it to them... ad infinitum.

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Bornagain
1 minute ago, Lightly Toasted said:

Except they ate the cake voluntarily.

How about: you chase someone brandishing a hammer; they run onto the road and get fatally knocked down. Seems to me you could be on the hook for manslaughter. The "covid in hospital" consequence is less direct but the chain of causation leading to death is directly comparable.

You make a good point.

However, it is reasonable to assume that chasing somebody with a hammer is setting out to harm them.

In the example above, is it reasonable to expect somebody to die of Covid as a result of your bad driving ?

I would suggest not.

If I punch somebody, and the ambulance taking them to hospital crashes and kills them, is their death my fault ? this prosecution suggests that it is.

I am not at all convinced that I should be to blame.

 

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Lightly Toasted
8 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

You make a good point.

However, it is reasonable to assume that chasing somebody with a hammer is setting out to harm them.

In the example above, is it reasonable to expect somebody to die of Covid as a result of your bad driving ?

I would suggest not.

If I punch somebody, and the ambulance taking them to hospital crashes and kills them, is their death my fault ? this prosecution suggests that it is.

I am not at all convinced that I should be to blame.

 

I think the key question is whether a criminal is on the hook for the consequences (including unforeseen/unintended ones)  of his crime.

wrt to the punch it could be lawful (e.g. self-defence or a boxing match) or unlawful (you assaulted him). If unlawful then the crashing ambulance is more complex than "hit his head on the pavement as he fell" but it's still a consequence of your unlawful act.

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Bornagain
16 minutes ago, Lightly Toasted said:

I think the key question is whether a criminal is on the hook for the consequences (including unforeseen/unintended ones)  of his crime.

wrt to the punch it could be lawful (e.g. self-defence or a boxing match) or unlawful (you assaulted him). If unlawful then the crashing ambulance is more complex than "hit his head on the pavement as he fell" but it's still a consequence of your unlawful act.

This whole issue raises some very interesting points, but at face value we appear to be running the risk of considering second, and maybe third order effects when punishing people - I worry that this is very much the thin edge of the wedge.

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Yadda yadda yadda
1 hour ago, spunko said:

Doesn't seem legally sound to me, but with all the decimation of centuries-old laws lately, nothing surprises me.

Maidstone man accused of causing death by dangerous driving after victim catches Covid while being treated in hospital

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/news/driver-accused-of-causing-retired-lecturers-covid-death-255529/
 

Jesus H Christ.

If there is any negligence it is on the part of the hospital.

As the tests are unreliable there has to be doubt that it was a hospital acquired infection. Reasonable doubt, case dismissed.

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Lightly Toasted
7 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

This whole issue raises some very interesting points, but at face value we appear to be running the risk of considering second, and maybe third order effects when punishing people - I worry that this is very much the thin edge of the wedge.

True, it's a complex question. @Hail the Tripod above reminded me about a similar thing with HIV.

https://www.nat.org.uk/sites/default/files/online-guides/May_2010_Prosecutions_for_HIV_Transmission.pdf

Lying about your STD status (or about whether you're on the pill or have had a vasectomy, for that matter) is not decent behaviour but should it be criminal? Honestly I don't know.

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Austin Allegro
12 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

This whole issue raises some very interesting points, but at face value we appear to be running the risk of considering second, and maybe third order effects when punishing people - I worry that this is very much the thin edge of the wedge.

Suggests to me that lawyers are drifting back towards a sort of medieval religious worldview. I imagine trials by ordeal and ducking-stools will re-emerge in some modern form before long.

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Bornagain
54 minutes ago, Lightly Toasted said:

I think the key question is whether a criminal is on the hook for the consequences (including unforeseen/unintended ones)  of his crime.

wrt to the punch it could be lawful (e.g. self-defence or a boxing match) or unlawful (you assaulted him). If unlawful then the crashing ambulance is more complex than "hit his head on the pavement as he fell" but it's still a consequence of your unlawful act.

Thinking about this means that it opens opportunities.

Tony Blair declares (illegally ?) war on Iraq.

People get killed - prosecute Tony Blair.

People carry out terrorist attacks to avenge the illegal war - prosecute Tony Blair.

PTSD damaged soldiers come home and carry out murders - prosecute Tony Blair.

PTSD damaged soldiers come home and kill themselves - prosecute Tony Blair.

It would appear that I am very keen on this new interpretation of the law.:)

 

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This may be an urban myth but I was told when I was in Singapore many years ago, if you were in a taxi and it was in an accident, the taxi driver would blame you, because if you hadn't ordered the taxi it wouldn't have been there.

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sarahbell
2 hours ago, Bornagain said:

This sets a very dangerous precedent.

You buy somebody a piece of cake.

Some years later he dies of a heart attack.

You are charged with manslaughter.


Yes insanity! 

46 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

 

It would appear that I am very keen on this new interpretation of the law.:)

 

Have you ever worked anywhere involving : food, alcohol, fizzy drinks, manufacturing/sale/maintenance of cars / anything that pollutes or potentially could contribute to a death. 

 

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Bornagain
Just now, sarahbell said:


Yes insanity! 

Have you ever worked anywhere involving : food, alcohol, fizzy drinks, manufacturing/sale/maintenance of cars / anything that pollutes or potentially could contribute to a death. 

 

Yep, making drugs for 25 years.

I am fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong.

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sarahbell
Just now, Bornagain said:

Yep, making drugs for 25 years.

I am fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong.

Or getting it right. Side effects.

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5 minutes ago, sarahbell said:


 

Have you ever worked anywhere involving : food, alcohol, fizzy drinks, manufacturing/sale/maintenance of cars / anything that pollutes or potentially could contribute to a death. 

 

Depends how far the logic chain could go, he can just blame someone else. 

 

Maybe he was woken up early by a phone call, causing him to be tired that day, so it's their fault. 

Or do we go back to the fact that he wouldn't be here if his mum hadn't had a baby? Or that the mother wouldn't be pregnant if the father hadn't impregnated her, so it is essentially his fault. 

 

Absolute insanity, the passing of blame would never end. 

 

Edited by Myco
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Bornagain
2 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

Or getting it right. Side effects.

A lot of the stuff we made would not be necessary if the population were not as fat.

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sarahbell
3 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

A lot of the stuff we made would not be necessary if the population were not as fat.

So who's responsible for them being put on drugs and not being told (and physically koralled into) losing weight

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Bornagain
36 minutes ago, sarahbell said:

So who's responsible for them being put on drugs and not being told (and physically koralled into) losing weight

The doctor who prescribed them.

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6 minutes ago, Bornagain said:

The doctor who prescribed them.

Yet you have people like this who 'tries' to lose weight with stupid fad diets, fucks her self up doing it and blames the doctors for making her lose weight. 

Not a single doctor tried to medicate it away. 

So they're fucked either way. 

Its people like this ruining it for everyone, she just wanted her fucking disability bennies. 

https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/01/doctors-told-lose-weight-almost-died-13155186/

If almost dying wasn’t horror enough, I have since been diagnosed with fibromyalgia. Pain specialists I have been treated by conclude that the trauma of a prolonged period of undiagnosed acute illness is likely the trigger

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4 hours ago, Bilbo said:

This may be an urban myth but I was told when I was in Singapore many years ago, if you were in a taxi and it was in an accident, the taxi driver would blame you, because if you hadn't ordered the taxi it wouldn't have been there.

I was once in a taxi from Rusholme back to Manc when the driver ran a red light right at our destination.

The police stopped him.

We ran without paying.

The End. 

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Myzsterious Mizz Jones
6 hours ago, Bilbo said:

This may be an urban myth but I was told when I was in Singapore many years ago, if you were in a taxi and it was in an accident, the taxi driver would blame you, because if you hadn't ordered the taxi it wouldn't have been there.

Surely the ultimate blame falls on the Taxi drivers parents then.

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