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Property predictions 2022


sarahbell
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Bobthebuilder
9 minutes ago, haroldshand said:

Try asking 95% of the ToS cult over the last 20 years who have now mostly given up,  the housing market can stay irrational a lot longer than we can come up with valid reasons why it should collapse

Oh yes, agree.

I joined TOS in January 2005, posted when it was in its first grey version pre fubra days, probably 2004. I bought a house late 2012, got banned from TOS in 2013. I couldn't give a fuck what they think over there, winkie, si, and a few others are ok, all the best of the rest are here.

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With a crooked smile
2 hours ago, haroldshand said:

I have heard every reason  under the sun why property prices will collapse, the likes of ToS have been even worse and been around two decades.

Yes it's mad and you talk "logic" and yes interest rates should(and I hope) will rise and inflation will go mad and yes to this that and the other and yet I am still following my plan and living abroad for a few years rather than waiting for a property crash that I willing to bet will not happen.

Brilliant if you are right, but hand on heart I don't even give it a 10% hope in the next three years at least

Good Post @haroldshand. One day TOS will be right but this could be next year or in 20 years time. Never underestimate politicians ability to kick the can further down the road. One thing many people forget on here and ToS is that if a crash occurs its still difficult to buy if you need any sort of finance. During the financial crash I knew people who were fairly solvent that struggled to transfer credit card balances to 0 %deals.

If anyone on here really understood the market with any degree of certainty and where it was going they would be very very rich. 

Moving abroad is almost certainly the right move for many reasons. I nearly did it myself at one stage. 

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8 hours ago, Option5 said:

As far as house sales go I believe they'll drop to almost zero apart from the usual 3Ds death, divorce debt. Should we add disease to the Ds?

However the 3Ds will probably rise in numbers in the aftermath of the COVID lockdowns.

I think 2% interest rates, would be the equivalent of tide going out and showing a worthwhile number of people who've been swimming with nowt on, in addition to the 3Ds lot.

Question is do interest rates rise to 2% or more this year, if not then no crashy crashy this year!

 

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2 hours ago, haroldshand said:

I have heard every reason  under the sun why property prices will collapse, the likes of ToS have been even worse and been around two decades.

Yes it's mad and you talk "logic" and yes interest rates should(and I hope) will rise and inflation will go mad and yes to this that and the other and yet I am still following my plan and living abroad for a few years rather than waiting for a property crash that I willing to bet will not happen.

Brilliant if you are right, but hand on heart I don't even give it a 10% hope in the next three years at least

Significantly higher interest rates are the one and only reason why house prices will crash, as you say there has been endless reasons listed on HPC and some on this site, and they'll all been proven to be bollocks.

S21 being the most obvious, along with mortgage tightening in 2012 that Spytranny went on about, and Basel 3.

Interest rates above 1% in 2022 and i see house prices falling, above 2% a worthwhile crash, above 3% we finally get a HPC, and i join Property 118 to direct the cunts to the nearest bridge.

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With a crooked smile
4 minutes ago, Hancock said:

Question is do interest rates rise to 2% or more this year,

Halifax who I have a chunk with currently do a 10 year fix at 1.93. That should tell you all you need to know about future interest rates. 

These guys are professionals looking to make money. 

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Just now, With a crooked smile said:

Halifax who I have a chunk with currently do a 10 year fix at 1.93. That should tell you all you need to know about future interest rates. 

These guys are professionals looking to make money. 

What banks offer on fixed rate mortgages has absolutely nothing to do with where interest rates are going in the future.

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So the FED will be sitting in their meeting about to raise interest rates as inflation is running at 8%, and then one of its decision makers quickly looks on Moneysupermarket.com, sees Virgin Bank are offering a 10 year fix at 1.9% and then they all agree not to raise interest rates.

FFS get back to your mates on Property118.

To get a long term fix at the lowest rates, a bank requires a large deposit, they wont be offering them to self certers looking for a 120% mortgage, backed by payslips that have just come out the washing machine.

image.png.6c19dfb717574e8d030b0ef025549fdb.png

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3 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Oh yes, agree.

I joined TOS in January 2005, posted when it was in its first grey version pre fubra days, probably 2004. I bought a house late 2012, got banned from TOS in 2013. I couldn't give a fuck what they think over there, winkie, si, and a few others are ok, all the best of the rest are here.

Aye but the landlords who in the end overran that site, have unfortunately come over here to offer their wisdom!

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With a crooked smile
40 minutes ago, Hancock said:

they wont be offering them to self certers looking for a 120% mortgage

Self certs ended in 2011. I've never had one nor a 100% or more mortgage. 

And tbf anyone who did self cert in 2011 at 120%  would be fine now. As I posted elsewhere on here I bought a place in mid 2011 and sold it Jan 2021 at 81% uplift remortgaging wouldn't be an issue. 

Look peace a will to all men and all that. You clearly care about this issue loads more than me. If you want to do something about it write to your MP and ask them to ban IO mortgages to me they are the problem. 

I've a total of 900k ish in residential, commercial and BTL mortgages. Only 205k is IO and we're planning to change that to repayment when it's up for renewal. And yeah I do feel fine about that level of mortgage debt. It's down to the individual to chose their own path and level of risk. 

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12 minutes ago, With a crooked smile said:

Self certs ended in 2011. I've never had one nor a 100% or more mortgage. 

And tbf anyone who did self cert in 2011 at 120%  would be fine now. As I posted elsewhere on here I bought a place in mid 2011 and sold it Jan 2021 at 81% uplift remortgaging wouldn't be an issue. 

Look peace a will to all men and all that. You clearly care about this issue loads more than me. If you want to do something about it write to your MP and ask them to ban IO mortgages to me they are the problem. 

I've a total of 900k ish in residential, commercial and BTL mortgages. Only 205k is IO and we're planning to change that to repayment when it's up for renewal. And yeah I do feel fine about that level of mortgage debt. It's down to the individual to chose their own path and level of risk. 

When have i ever stated ive a problem with IO mortgages? But if I did, are you actually suggesting me writing to my MP will halt this?

I just think the modern day landlord like yourself is a parasitic cunt, and has done more than most to ruin this country.

But you've done well out of being a scrounging cunt and have got lucky that interest rates have stayed at this level for 10 years ... and i dont for 1 second belive you thought they would when you took out your mortgages.

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With a crooked smile
3 minutes ago, Hancock said:

When have i ever stated ive a problem with IO mortgages? But if I did, are you actually suggesting me writing to my MP will halt this?

I just think the modern day landlord like yourself is a parasitic cunt, and has done more than most to ruin this country.

But you've done well out of being a scrounging cunt and have got lucky that interest rates have stayed at this level for 10 years ... and i dont for 1 second belive you thought they would when you took out your mortgages.

That's pretty personal fella.

You don't know me what I've been through, what my motivations are or what I've done for others less fortunate than myself. 

I'd suggest reading Kiplings 'If' to know my personal outlook on life a little better. 

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4 hours ago, haroldshand said:

Try asking 95% of the ToS cult over the last 20 years who have now mostly given up,  the housing market can stay irrational a lot longer than we can come up with valid reasons why it should collapse

Agreed, but you could equally state "has stayed".

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PatronizingGit

-50%.

 

I want to sell, & all thats keeping the plates spinning is rates. Given the green terrorists, & our Britain & British last govt keep poking the russian bear for absolutely no benefit, I think energy costs will sooner or later overwhelm all non leisure class Brits. Only place I see (admittedly massive) potential room for adjustment is the continued bubble state of house prices.

 

still, if they fall by 50% everywhere, I don't mind.

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7 hours ago, spygirl said:

If all UK property fell 50% next then only a small percentage would have a problem.

Only 40% of housing has finance on it. Out of those, 50% will be more than half paid.

Unlike the 80s/90s, theres just not a lot of people carry large mortgage debt.

What's increased is the number of people who think theyll make money. They wont, and rarely did.

 

this linky says 11mn out of 29mn dwellings has mrotgages on it but I suspect that substantially udnerstates things.

firstly,foreign owners may be lsited as cash purachsers but have loans outstanding on them that are held abroad.quite common I beleive.

secondly BTLers holding properites in a ltd co won't show as being mrotgaged.

I'll have a dig thoguht the report and see what other gems are in there.There was a parliamentary paper some time ago 2018 iirc which gave a fascianting insight into the BTL market.

I've pciked out some of the hgihlights but the key take home here is the structural weakness in the market in terms of liquidity.Ave hosuhold moves once every twenty years,I suspect the bulk of transactions are mrotgaged(old people move less),mode mortgage is a 5 year fix,

form the report

Mortgage lending supports over 70 per cent of housing transactions. Gross mortgage
lending has doubled to £268 billion over the last decade, supported by rising sales and
house price growth. The expansion in gross lending has been achieved with limited
mortgage product innovation

The total value of private homes less total mortgage
debt now exceeds £6 trillion. Mortgage balances account for 19 per cent of the total
value of private housing.

Despite the growth in housing equity, the number of homeowners with a mortgage is
13 per cent lower than a decade ago, as older households pay off loans and first-time
buyer numbers start to level off.

The Help to Buy equity loan scheme (HTBEL), launched in 2013 to help those with small
deposits buy new homes, has become an important feature of the new homes market
in England. The proposed ending of the scheme in 2023 presents a major challenge to
growth in new housing delivery.

The average household moves once every 20 years

 

7 hours ago, spygirl said:

 

You are both looking at yesteryear problem, from 30 years ago.

Sure, higher IRs will cause a lot of problems.

However a single, large problem, has been replaced by several smaller ones which add to a massive problem.

First n foremost- the lack if equity held by tge under 50s. If people havnt spent the last 20 years renting then theyve spent it on TCs.

Theres just not the buyers, by volume n with cash, to transact moves by the over 50s.

I'm already seeing thus locally- probates drive the market. Theres no longer the Easter panic to get I to school in Sep. Now it's a bad winter/flu that dumps houses on the market.

Secondly, jobs. Few expensive housing areas have the local jobs to support them. The old jobs are long gone. Trying to get people moving to expensive areas is impossible.  With the surge in wfh thats not going to happen.

A lot of companies in london/se are going to pack up and go.

Markets, Inc housing are very dynamic. They need to balance supply n demand. Zirp hasjust made people hang onto housing positions for too long. Tgeres too many people holding housing they should have got rid off 10-15 years ago. They are going yo be destroyed as IRs turn and you get 15 year of delayed sales rushing for a narrow exit.

 

 

Some good analysis there SPy and it's hard to disagree with.Proven by the fact that transactions are nowehre near levels from 15 years ago.

We could buy but I'm jsut not interested in swapping solid equity postions and cash for uk property exposure.SOme have done very well from the trade but I really dislike illiquid markets because I've been bitten before trying to exit in a stampede through a small door.Hence it's a trade I'm happy toleave to otehr particiapnts.We're moving next week,foruth move in 9 years,there's now ay we could have moved up the hosuing ladder like that if we'd bought which jsut sort of exemplifies the problem as I see it ie that a lrage proprotion of first time buyers can only really afford the hosue wiht govt help.Next hosue of ours is being rented ona 2.5% gross yield.BP pays 5% net.Go figure.

Lets be under no illusion though,property has been the trade of the last 25 years and property has been a solid trade since the 1960's and that means that a lot of people are stacked on one side of teh ship.Reinforcing the structural vulenrability in the market.

8 hours ago, haroldshand said:

I am not saying that it is too big to fail what I am saying though is that the government and the banking system(in other words the same thing)  they are working on the basis that it is now too big to fail and so will throw every last desperate measure at keeping the plated spinning

Yep the end result one day that we will have a meltdown, but the politicians and banks will take everyone down with them before they give up

I think the key issue here is that the room for bailing out the banks is significantly reduced compared to 2008.Govt fiscal psotion,inflation and the fact that less voters have a financial interest in perpetuating the bubble than at any point in the last 30 years.Most people under 50 would welcome lower prices,even if it incldued a vicious debt deflation.

ANd therein lies the second part of the problem,the govt can't bail it again and nor can the bond markets.JUnk bond yields are running negative real yields.Barclays bank Dowd Buckner leverage ratio is 40/1 or something like that.HSBC and Lloyds are more 30/1 but they still actaully aren't well palced to withstand a 5% drop in demand at the margins where hosuse prices are set.

Interesting times.I'm not really involved this time,emotioanlly or fiancially,so the next banking melt down will be more itneresting for me than the last.

I hope people don't starve as a result.

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7 hours ago, sancho panza said:

this linky says 11mn out of 29mn dwellings has mrotgages on it but I suspect that substantially udnerstates things.

firstly,foreign owners may be lsited as cash purachsers but have loans outstanding on them that are held abroad.quite common I beleive.

secondly BTLers holding properites in a ltd co won't show as being mrotgaged.

I'll have a dig thoguht the report and see what other gems are in there.There was a parliamentary paper some time ago 2018 iirc which gave a fascianting insight into the BTL market.

I've pciked out some of the hgihlights but the key take home here is the structural weakness in the market in terms of liquidity.Ave hosuhold moves once every twenty years,I suspect the bulk of transactions are mrotgaged(old people move less),mode mortgage is a 5 year fix,

form the report

Mortgage lending supports over 70 per cent of housing transactions. Gross mortgage
lending has doubled to £268 billion over the last decade, supported by rising sales and
house price growth. The expansion in gross lending has been achieved with limited
mortgage product innovation

The total value of private homes less total mortgage
debt now exceeds £6 trillion. Mortgage balances account for 19 per cent of the total
value of private housing.

Despite the growth in housing equity, the number of homeowners with a mortgage is
13 per cent lower than a decade ago, as older households pay off loans and first-time
buyer numbers start to level off.

The Help to Buy equity loan scheme (HTBEL), launched in 2013 to help those with small
deposits buy new homes, has become an important feature of the new homes market
in England. The proposed ending of the scheme in 2023 presents a major challenge to
growth in new housing delivery.

The average household moves once every 20 years

 

Some good analysis there SPy and it's hard to disagree with.Proven by the fact that transactions are nowehre near levels from 15 years ago.

We could buy but I'm jsut not interested in swapping solid equity postions and cash for uk property exposure.SOme have done very well from the trade but I really dislike illiquid markets because I've been bitten before trying to exit in a stampede through a small door.Hence it's a trade I'm happy toleave to otehr particiapnts.We're moving next week,foruth move in 9 years,there's now ay we could have moved up the hosuing ladder like that if we'd bought which jsut sort of exemplifies the problem as I see it ie that a lrage proprotion of first time buyers can only really afford the hosue wiht govt help.Next hosue of ours is being rented ona 2.5% gross yield.BP pays 5% net.Go figure.

Lets be under no illusion though,property has been the trade of the last 25 years and property has been a solid trade since the 1960's and that means that a lot of people are stacked on one side of teh ship.Reinforcing the structural vulenrability in the market.

I think the key issue here is that the room for bailing out the banks is significantly reduced compared to 2008.Govt fiscal psotion,inflation and the fact that less voters have a financial interest in perpetuating the bubble than at any point in the last 30 years.Most people under 50 would welcome lower prices,even if it incldued a vicious debt deflation.

ANd therein lies the second part of the problem,the govt can't bail it again and nor can the bond markets.JUnk bond yields are running negative real yields.Barclays bank Dowd Buckner leverage ratio is 40/1 or something like that.HSBC and Lloyds are more 30/1 but they still actaully aren't well palced to withstand a 5% drop in demand at the margins where hosuse prices are set.

Interesting times.I'm not really involved this time,emotioanlly or fiancially,so the next banking melt down will be more itneresting for me than the last.

I hope people don't starve as a result.

Responses, roughly in order.

Its sub 50, thats what matters. And the people really heavily expose are a fraction of that.

The point is, th VIs make out that a property fall would be the end of the world. It might be for them. Its a big nah for the majority.

In terms of BTL and foreign  exposure - noone gives a fuck if they blow up.

 

Average lenght of holding of property/time to move.

I dotn think there is an average. A log of property is bought then people sit in it til they die.

IMO this is figure made up by EA to try and drum up business.

 

Mortgage lending  *DOES* prop housing transaction. Majority of houses are sold in a chain, althogh I expect that to change with the rise of probates.

Each chain will need 2-3 mortgages to il the transactions.

House chains blow up when mortgage mortgages stutters.

Ill cut n paste thse, as they are very important and back up the above -

The total value of private homes less total mortgage
debt now exceeds £6 trillion. Mortgage balances account for 19 per cent of the total
value of private housing.

Despite the growth in housing equity, the number of homeowners with a mortgage is
13 per cent lower than a decade ago, as older households pay off loans and first-time
buyer numbers start to level off.

2nd one especially. Mortgages as a means of drive in housign market and UK bank is now pretty much dead.

People are paying off mortgages or not getting one (stuck in BTL/rental).

This is important as its FTB that provde the new equity/debt in the housign market.

No FTB then housign market will become sticky. Im seeing this in home regions.

The end of killing of IO BTL is going to be funny.

IO BTL is dead, just the LL dont know it.

Majority  dont release they owe ~30%-50% of rent to HMRC.

They dont know theres capital gain to pay on selling up.

The yield they operating is fucking nuts. Its only sub 5% SVR that has kept them slightly cash yielding. Remove uber low IRs and the whole fantasy blows up.

I dont think property has been the best trade/mass market since the 60s.

The mass market mortgage market only came into being in the 70s. The last 30% was put in place in the 80s faster finsec deregulation and then expansion in the 80s.

The UK banking industry as its been know since WW2 died in 2008.

In terms of money, that depends on where you are from.

Again Im Northern, so theres only been a couple of short periods in there last 30 odd years when property has gone up - 87-89ish and 1999ish to 2004ish.

That its gone down a lot (91-97) or just stayed the same (2004-)

Covid has accelerated the shifts already rolling out in  the London/SE.

Im expecting London/Se is lurch down and down, as both IR go up and jobs shuft elsewhere.

To me, London now looks like an ethnic version of  early 1980s Middlebrough

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Well, if I only have to supply the bubbly, I would consider that I got off lightly.

My eyes have been opened today, the market is obviously not what it was last time I looked in anger.

When I put our figures in the mortgage calculator, £40k deposit gave us a mortgage offer of £106K, so I upped the deposit to £100k, the mortgage offer went up to £111K. Fucked I tell thee, proper fucked from here.

One of my feckless sisters reckons shes getting a mortgage net year.

150k-200k will do her, apparently.

I dont know nothing, apparently. Banks are going to lend her the money.

My 75yo mother assures me my sister is right - Of course she get a mortgage.

Im being a fucking idiot. She knows what to do apparently, shell know how to answer the questions.

She earning all of ~500/m PT cleaning. And thats a recent thing, work. Thats the peak of her 30 years as an adult.

Assuming the lazy  cow gets off her arse - and hes not for 30 years - then its going to be popcorn time.

Sometime in summer I expect the idiot will come up with scheme by which I take on the mortgage - Dont worry, Ill pay it, shell say. Just the banks dont  want to lend to me...

If the  lazy cow had don what I suggested when she came back to the UK 10 years ago - get a FT job,. quickly and save, then the stupid cow would not be in the situation.

She could have have 50k (first 6 years was being paid for by her now ex BF) easy and ~25k job.

But that would involve working.

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15 hours ago, Bobthebuilder said:

Oh yes, agree.

I joined TOS in January 2005, posted when it was in its first grey version pre fubra days, probably 2004. I bought a house late 2012, got banned from TOS in 2013. I couldn't give a fuck what they think over there, winkie, si, and a few others are ok, all the best of the rest are here.

They are the greatest example of people thinking they could see the world as it really was and slagged off so many other websites for being "sheeple" as they called them. They had the greater knowledge from as far back as the early 2000's and their reasoning was beyond doubt and where they banned dissenters on the spot for questioning them.

Two decades later and no apologies and so many lived fucked because of their 100% wrong prediction

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13 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

Good Post @haroldshand. One day TOS will be right but this could be next year or in 20 years time. Never underestimate politicians ability to kick the can further down the road. One thing many people forget on here and ToS is that if a crash occurs its still difficult to buy if you need any sort of finance. During the financial crash I knew people who were fairly solvent that struggled to transfer credit card balances to 0 %deals.

If anyone on here really understood the market with any degree of certainty and where it was going they would be very very rich. 

Moving abroad is almost certainly the right move for many reasons. I nearly did it myself at one stage. 

To be fair it's not all about housing, money or the economy and waiting for it to come right. Right now the UK is having a massive breakdown in who it is and what it wants to be. There are still parts of  Britain where I can see myself living, the south Lakes, Yorkshire Dales or even parts of Northumberland where many off the  traditions still survive with little damage yet done through woke etc.

Central Portugal close to Lisbon is just what I need right now and will help me out with tax as well

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12 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

Self certs ended in 2011. I've never had one nor a 100% or more mortgage. 

And tbf anyone who did self cert in 2011 at 120%  would be fine now. As I posted elsewhere on here I bought a place in mid 2011 and sold it Jan 2021 at 81% uplift remortgaging wouldn't be an issue. 

Look peace a will to all men and all that. You clearly care about this issue loads more than me. If you want to do something about it write to your MP and ask them to ban IO mortgages to me they are the problem. 

I've a total of 900k ish in residential, commercial and BTL mortgages. Only 205k is IO and we're planning to change that to repayment when it's up for renewal. And yeah I do feel fine about that level of mortgage debt. It's down to the individual to chose their own path and level of risk. 

Self certs on mass were probably the one single biggest crimes in the UK that were openly allowed to happen and not one person in the UK was prosecuted, it was totally hush hushed and swept under the carpet. Had the UK gone into a property meltdown I am convinced these people would have been the scapegoats.

I am old enough to remember the early days of the internet and if like me you never looked at porn(still don't)  because looking at hard porn was as far as I was concerned was once illegal and I still cannot remember a law that made it OK, but Millions know search these sites. 

That's how big criminal  scale self certs were ignored

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11 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

That's pretty personal fella.

You don't know me what I've been through, what my motivations are or what I've done for others less fortunate than myself. 

I'd suggest reading Kiplings 'If' to know my personal outlook on life a little better. 

I won't hide the fact that I had issues with the UK BTL model and many of it's landlords and the now £40 Billion in housing benefit that helps prop that market up yearly, and there is far more evil in that business.

But hand on heart now I say good luck to you, the UK has lost it's moral compass and moral hazard has long left these shores and you take what you can and when you can, it's not your job to be a BTL landlord policeman.

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13 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

Self certs ended in 2011. I've never had one nor a 100% or more mortgage. 

And tbf anyone who did self cert in 2011 at 120%  would be fine now. As I posted elsewhere on here I bought a place in mid 2011 and sold it Jan 2021 at 81% uplift remortgaging wouldn't be an issue. 

Look peace a will to all men and all that. You clearly care about this issue loads more than me. If you want to do something about it write to your MP and ask them to ban IO mortgages to me they are the problem. 

I've a total of 900k ish in residential, commercial and BTL mortgages. Only 205k is IO and we're planning to change that to repayment when it's up for renewal. And yeah I do feel fine about that level of mortgage debt. It's down to the individual to chose their own path and level of risk. 

No.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53380724

The mortgage prisoner sob stories are constantly featuring 120% io half with who are still under water almost 15 years on.

Theres 400k of those. These people have less than 40% equity otherwise they'd be able to remortgage.

Then theres the io mortgage lot. I think that's another 1m+. Huge  number of IO mortgages start to end now.

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13 hours ago, With a crooked smile said:

Self certs ended in 2011. I've never had one nor a 100% or more mortgage. 

And tbf anyone who did self cert in 2011 at 120%  would be fine now. As I posted elsewhere on here I bought a place in mid 2011 and sold it Jan 2021 at 81% uplift remortgaging wouldn't be an issue. 

Look peace a will to all men and all that. You clearly care about this issue loads more than me. If you want to do something about it write to your MP and ask them to ban IO mortgages to me they are the problem. 

I've a total of 900k ish in residential, commercial and BTL mortgages. Only 205k is IO and we're planning to change that to repayment when it's up for renewal. And yeah I do feel fine about that level of mortgage debt. It's down to the individual to chose their own path and level of risk. 

The banks might have other plans.

Without going into your particular circumstances they are more likely to push payment of debt rather than advance you anymore.

Banks are running away from people with lots of property debt esp. Whfn its other banks.

 

 

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1 hour ago, haroldshand said:

I won't hide the fact that I had issues with the UK BTL model and many of it's landlords and the now £40 Billion in housing benefit that helps prop that market up yearly, and there is far more evil in that business.

But hand on heart now I say good luck to you, the UK has lost it's moral compass and moral hazard has long left these shores and you take what you can and when you can, it's not your job to be a BTL landlord policeman.

Sad but so very true ! I'd like things to be different but the reality is that the UK is now morally bankrupt. Many of the older generation ( our age !) have been corrupted or become resigned to the changes, younger generations have never know it to be any different so it's "normal" for them :( 

The benefits culture is a prime example, I blame the powers which created the system not the individuals who make full use of their legal choice to have the state provide for them.

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1 hour ago, haroldshand said:

Self certs on mass were probably the one single biggest crimes in the UK that were openly allowed to happen and not one person in the UK was prosecuted, it was totally hush hushed and swept under the carpet. Had the UK gone into a property meltdown I am convinced these people would have been the scapegoats.

I am old enough to remember the early days of the internet and if like me you never looked at porn(still don't)  because looking at hard porn was as far as I was concerned was once illegal and I still cannot remember a law that made it OK, but Millions know search these sites. 

That's how big criminal  scale self certs were ignored

Until MMR mortgages were unregulated.

Anything goes.

You could lie on tge application znc, if the lian went bad, then the bank would make a criminal case.

 

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13 minutes ago, Andersen said:

Sad but so very true ! I'd like things to be different but the reality is that the UK is now morally bankrupt. Many of the older generation ( our age !) have been corrupted or become resigned to the changes, younger generations have never know it to be any different so it's "normal" for them :( 

The benefits culture is a prime example, I blame the powers which created the system not the individuals who make full use of their legal choice to have the state provide for them.

You look at social housing these days, just walk into wherever it is you get these places and say "I am working low paid and married to my wife and want to start a family and can I have a council house" and they will laugh you out of the building, social housing is solely for little girls just out of school without education with children from unknown fathers these days.

I know so many stories where workers after 25 years work attempted because of adversity in their lives to use the welfare scheme they had paid into for 25 plus years and were met with a nightmare because they never had the killer instinct to ponce the money they rightly deserves and yet a immigrant who hate this country can somehow manage to stay on welfare for decades.

I don't care what anyone says there was  more decency though not perfect among politicians, the banking system and media 40 years ago. The Perfumo affair for example was a big deal in the 1960's, but that's nothing these days and Perfumo then resigned and spent the rest of his life making up for this minor infringement 

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