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One percent

It's education Jim, just not as we know it

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41984465

The advertising watchdog has told six UK universities to take down marketing claims that could be misleading. 

Leicester, East Anglia, Strathclyde, Falmouth, Teesside and the University of West London have all had complaints upheld against them.

The Advertising Standards Authority is warning against exaggerated claims made to attract students.

Chief executive Guy Parker says students need "good evidence" when making such a big financial commitment.

"Misleading would-be students is not only unfair, it can also lead them to make choices that aren't right for them," said Mr Parker.

Complaints were upheld against six universities:

Falmouth University has been told to stop describing itself as "the UK's number one arts university" or "the UK's number one creative university".

  • Teesside University had a complaint upheld for saying it was the "Top university in England for long-term graduate prospects".
  • University of East Anglia has been told not to use the claim "Top 5 for student satisfaction".
  • University of Leicester must stop claiming to be "a top 1% world university". 
  • University of Strathclyde has been told to change the claim "We're ranked No. 1 in the UK" for physics.
  • University of West London must stop claiming to be "London's top modern university - and one of the top 10 in the UK".

Note that they are all bottom league establishments (I hesitate to call them universities)  

me thinks a lot of these are going to the wall

 

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The treat to Unis is not really the ASA, its lawsuits by  students.

I had a couple of duff lecturers during my years. Chatting around at work, its pretty common. There does not seem to be a lot of quality control with UInis - once you get in your foot in the door, you are left alone and have to really fuck up before something is done.

When the student was not paying fees  i.e. not the customer, this sort of stuff was let slip.

Different now 'Im 50K in debt, I cant get a job, the Uni jerked me around with morons...'

 

 

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

The treat to Unis is not really the ASA, its lawsuits by  students.

I had a couple of duff lecturers during my years. Chatting around at work, its pretty common. There does not seem to be a lot of quality control with UInis - once you get in your foot in the door, you are left alone and have to really fuck up before something is done.

When the student was not paying fees  i.e. not the customer, this sort of stuff was let slip.

Different now 'Im 50K in debt, I cant get a job, the Uni jerked me around with morons...'

 

 

Yep.  I teach post grads. We know how to teach. The students are frequently commenting that it is a very different experience to their undergraduate study (im thinking they mean in a good way but don't delve too much xD)

ive also seen some academics teach (the ones who think teaching is something dirty and beneath them). I would rather watch paint dry. 

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30 minutes ago, One percent said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41984465

The advertising watchdog has told six UK universities to take down marketing claims that could be misleading. 

Leicester, East Anglia, Strathclyde, Falmouth, Teesside and the University of West London have all had complaints upheld against them.

The Advertising Standards Authority is warning against exaggerated claims made to attract students.

Chief executive Guy Parker says students need "good evidence" when making such a big financial commitment.

"Misleading would-be students is not only unfair, it can also lead them to make choices that aren't right for them," said Mr Parker.

Complaints were upheld against six universities:

Falmouth University has been told to stop describing itself as "the UK's number one arts university" or "the UK's number one creative university".

  • Teesside University had a complaint upheld for saying it was the "Top university in England for long-term graduate prospects".
  • University of East Anglia has been told not to use the claim "Top 5 for student satisfaction".
  • University of Leicester must stop claiming to be "a top 1% world university". 
  • University of Strathclyde has been told to change the claim "We're ranked No. 1 in the UK" for physics.
  • University of West London must stop claiming to be "London's top modern university - and one of the top 10 in the UK".

Note that they are all bottom league establishments (I hesitate to call them universities)  

me thinks a lot of these are going to the wall

 

Leicester is quite a long established University. It got its University status by Royal Charter in 1957.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Leicester

Must have hit the skids recently  if it is now mentioned in the same breath as the University of Falmouth.

Edited by Virgil Caine

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Frabkly, the only objectiv measure is for UKGOV to track postgrad earning i.e. somehting like x% of X grads are repaying their student loan. Or, 10 years since graduating, average income per degree subject.

At the mo, Uni of Shitehole can claim success for its grads. Thats wrong - what you earn depends on the Uni and the subject.

Some of the newer places are mainly delivering junk degrees at huge expense to the student.

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3 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

Leicester is quite a long established University. It got its University status by Royal Carter in 1957.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Leicester

Must have hit the skids recently  if it is now mentioned in the same breath as the University of Falmouth.

Yep, you are right, I missed that one in the list bit always had a good reputation. 

I guess it is not helped though by being in Leicester.  Hmm, Leicester, York, Durham?  Let me think, where would I rather go?  Even Nottingham is a nicer area (actually it's a very nice city)  

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

Frabkly, the only objectiv measure is for UKGOV to track postgrad earning i.e. somehting like x% of X grads are repaying their student loan. Or, 10 years since graduating, average income per degree subject.

At the mo, Uni of Shitehole can claim success for its grads. Thats wrong - what you earn depends on the Uni and the subject.

Some of the newer places are mainly delivering junk degrees at huge expense to the student.

I think students themselves are working this one out.  I also think that the HE bubble has burst. Enrolment is down (I've not bothered looking at the figures but anecdotally and my own experience).

the good universities will survive and the poor will fold. I can see the country in about ten years having ten or so massive corporate machine like institutions. 

That in itself will bring a whole host of problems. 

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37 minutes ago, spygirl said:

The treat to Unis is not really the ASA, its lawsuits by  students.

I had a couple of duff lecturers during my years. Chatting around at work, its pretty common. There does not seem to be a lot of quality control with UInis - once you get in your foot in the door, you are left alone and have to really fuck up before something is done.

When the student was not paying fees  i.e. not the customer, this sort of stuff was let slip.

Different now 'Im 50K in debt, I cant get a job, the Uni jerked me around with morons...'

 

 

Unfortunately, I agree with your post given what University* has inevitably become to get ~50% of school leavers through the doors (or ~40% of school leavers off the unemployment stats).

But the result is that the 'customers' drive what they get given and since they only know and feel comfortable with the type of education they've received in school for the last 14 years, University has turned into Grange Hill. So we have 21-yr old school leavers. Spoon fed, ~80% expect to be given everything in lectures. It was not uncommon for less than half the students to turn up to my lectures and the others to just send in their mobile phones which would be placed in a row on the front desk to record the lecture. At the beginning of my courses I would always say i did not expect to see my lecture notes regurgitated as exam answers, but expected to see much greater depth. I refused requests to put presentations on the intranet. I was not popular with management as some students would inevitably, fail my course.

A student once told me at the end of one of my courses that they were lodging a complaint. Strewth I thought, knowing what would ensue in terms of meetings,  management bullying, possible pointless 'training' etc. So, glumly, I asked the student 'what was the problem'. 'Oh I'm not complaining about you, I'm complaining that (after taking your course) I realise the University has lulled me into a false sense of security'.

*most universities

Edited by Hopeful

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14 minutes ago, Hopeful said:

Unfortunately, I agree with your post given what University* has inevitably become to get ~50% of school leavers through the doors (or ~40% of school leavers off the unemployment stats).

But the result is that the 'customers' drive what they get given and since they only know and feel comfortable with the type of education they've received in school for the last 14 years, University has turned into Grange Hill. So we have 21-yr old school leavers. Spoon fed, ~80% expect to be given everything in lectures. It was not uncommon for less than half the students to turn up to my lectures and the others to just send in their mobile phones which would be placed in a row on the front desk to record the lecture. At the beginning of my courses I would always say i did not expect to see my lecture notes regurgitated as exam answers, but expected to see much greater depth. I refused requests to put presentations on the intranet. I was not popular with management as some students would inevitably, fail my course.

A student once told me at the end of one of my courses that they were lodging a complaint. Strewth I thought, knowing what would ensue in terms of meetings,  management bullying, possible pointless 'training' etc. So, glumly, I asked the student 'what was the problem'. 'Oh I'm not complaining about you, I'm complaining that (after taking your course) I realise the University has lulled me into a false sense of security'.

*most universities

My solution to the Uni thang - who goes, how do we pat for it - is very simple - Anyone wanting to go to Uni must pass A levels maths at C or upwards.
50% of funding - living + tuition will be paid by the state. Other 50% is an IR free loan to the student.

fucking simple eh?

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The Advertising Standards Authority is one of those in-house faux regulators designed to protect its own people.

They never fine or punish anyone; just tell them not to do it again.

So Teeside Uni can claim to be the top uni for long term graduate employment. Some absolute numpty will believe it and take out a £50k debt to get a degree from that most ancient and prestigious academic institution the University of Teeside only to find it ranks slightly lower than a GNVQ in doing up your shoelaces.

The Uni wins, the student loses, and the ASA says don't do it again please. Yet they will.

I do wonder when the government will finally step in to the false advertising racket.

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4 minutes ago, spygirl said:

My solution to the Uni thang - who goes, how do we pat for it - is very simple - Anyone wanting to go to Uni must pass A levels maths at C or upwards.
50% of funding - living + tuition will be paid by the state. Other 50% is an IR free loan to the student.

fucking simple eh?

Seems reasonable on the funding, I wouldn't necessarily specify A level Maths for arts students, but I would require a C or above at GSCE for arts and A level Maths for science

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4 minutes ago, spygirl said:

My solution to the Uni thang - who goes, how do we pat for it - is very simple - Anyone wanting to go to Uni must pass A levels maths at C or upwards.
50% of funding - living + tuition will be paid by the state. Other 50% is an IR free loan to the student.

fucking simple eh?

Nope it's not really. University by and large is not about education. A lot of if is of less worth in developing individuals than  FE was 20 odd years ago. 

It is there to both fool the plebs into thinking that we are all equal (of course we are, we have all got a degree) and to mask massive youth unemployment 

 

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10 minutes ago, One percent said:

Nope it's not really. University by and large is not about education. A lot of if is of less worth in developing individuals than  FE was 20 odd years ago. 

It is there to both fool the plebs into thinking that we are all equal (of course we are, we have all got a degree) and to mask massive youth unemployment 

 

And to provide a big tax take for the government from all the people employed out of the fruits of tuition fees.

Incidentally I heard a programme that said Scottish students, with their free tuition fees, are actually still on the old model as because the state pays the fees then places are restricted and only the best get in. Although there is no restriction on Scottish unis taking in fee paying non-Scots people.

So if an employer does still want a decent graduate then either hire one from a top uni or recruit a Scottish graduate from a Scottish uni.

Edited by Frank Hovis

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1 hour ago, One percent said:

Note that they are all bottom league establishments (I hesitate to call them universities) 

I'm pretty sure East Anglia, Leicester and Strathclyde were proper universities, not polytechnics. Can they really have fallen so low?

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1 hour ago, Virgil Caine said:

Leicester is quite a long established University. It got its University status by Royal Charter in 1957.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Leicester

Must have hit the skids recently  if it is now mentioned in the same breath as the University of Falmouth.

They're all getting depserate depending mainly on how they've leveraged into the university bubble.

Some hve built shedloads of new buildings,others have diversified into student housing on a massive scale.

HESA data shows the early signs of dwindling demand from UK domiciled undergrads.

At some point the kids were going to realise there aren't enough graduate jobs for the debts they're running up.

£50k at 21 becomes nearly £100k at 31 if n ot of it is paid back at RPI + 3%

15 minutes ago, Panther said:

I'm pretty sure East Anglia, Leicester and Strathclyde were proper universities, not polytechnics. Can they really have fallen so low?

Yes.

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26 minutes ago, Panther said:

I'm pretty sure East Anglia, Leicester and Strathclyde were proper universities, not polytechnics. Can they really have fallen so low?

Ah, yes, I was thinking anglia Ruskin rather than east anglia. Scottish universities, I haven't a clue 

12 minutes ago, Zanu Bob said:

They're all getting depserate depending mainly on how they've leveraged into the university bubble.

Some hve built shedloads of new buildings,others have diversified into student housing on a massive scale.

HESA data shows the early signs of dwindling demand from UK domiciled undergrads.

At some point the kids were going to realise there aren't enough graduate jobs for the debts they're running up.

£50k at 21 becomes nearly £100k at 31 if n ot of it is paid back at RPI + 3%

Yes.

That's significant for the future economic power of people. 

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1 hour ago, Hopeful said:

Seems reasonable on the funding, I wouldn't necessarily specify A level Maths for arts students, but I would require a C or above at GSCE for arts and A level Maths for science

I would.

You want bright, studious people going into HE.

Best filter is Maths A level.

1 hour ago, One percent said:

Nope it's not really. University by and large is not about education. A lot of if is of less worth in developing individuals than  FE was 20 odd years ago. 

It is there to both fool the plebs into thinking that we are all equal (of course we are, we have all got a degree) and to mask massive youth unemployment 

 

Again, the A level maths is a reset for a number of thing - numbers going, filtering courses, etc.

If you want to hide under 25s unemployed than do it cheaper and more productively than getting kids to take on 50k of debt studying arts+humanities.

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1 hour ago, Frank Hovis said:

The Advertising Standards Authority is one of those in-house faux regulators designed to protect its own people.

They never fine or punish anyone; just tell them not to do it again.

So Teeside Uni can claim to be the top uni for long term graduate employment. Some absolute numpty will believe it and take out a £50k debt to get a degree from that most ancient and prestigious academic institution the University of Teeside only to find it ranks slightly lower than a GNVQ in doing up your shoelaces.

The Uni wins, the student loses, and the ASA says don't do it again please. Yet they will.

I do wonder when the government will finally step in to the false advertising racket.

To be honest, back in he late 80s Teesside was very good for Chemical engineering (unsurprising), Applied Maths and Computers/Software. They used to offer good HND to industrial apprentices.

I cant speak for it now as Ive not ealt with many people from it i nth last 20 years.

My guess its is its bet big on on Arts+Humanities and bought to heavily into 'everyone going to Uni' rather than focusing on vocational industry stuff that  would get you a job.

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3 minutes ago, spygirl said:

I would.

You want bright, studious people going into HE.

Best filter is Maths A level.

Again, the A level maths is a reset for a number of thing - numbers going, filtering courses, etc.

If you want to hide under 25s unemployed than do it cheaper and more productively than getting kids to take on 50k of debt studying arts+humanities.

A Level Maths gives you bright but not necessarily studious.  I did it and Further Maths because I found it very easy so I didn't have to do much work so two A Levels for veyr little effort; I would guess a tenth of that done by the A Level Geography or History classes.

You just need relevant A Levels; though I agree that for anything vaguely science that must include A Level Maths.

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Just now, spygirl said:

To be honest, back in he late 80s Teesside was very good for Chemical engineering (unsurprising), Applied Maths and Computers/Software. They used to offer good HND to industrial apprentices.

I did my CIPS qualifications there. Not that I ever used them since.

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

To be honest, back in he late 80s Teesside was very good for Chemical engineering (unsurprising), Applied Maths and Computers/Software. They used to offer good HND to industrial apprentices.

I cant speak for it now as Ive not ealt with many people from it i nth last 20 years.

My guess its is its bet big on on Arts+Humanities and bought to heavily into 'everyone going to Uni' rather than focusing on vocational industry stuff that  would get you a job.

This thread is crossing with the more people = more money Paved Paradise thread.  Exeter Uni was an excellent one way back but vastly increased in size in order to give more money to the Vice Chancellor; it was at least fivefold, may be tenfold now.

There just is not that number of decent students about; so the average graduate from there is going to be vastly worse than one from pre 2000.  It is no longer a mark of quality.

I'm not singling that one out; I just happen to know something about it.

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7 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

This thread is crossing with the more people = more money Paved Paradise thread.  Exeter Uni was an excellent one way back but vastly increased in size in order to give more money to the Vice Chancellor; it was at least fivefold, may be tenfold now.

There just is not that number of decent students about; so the average graduate from there is going to be vastly worse than one from pre 2000.  It is no longer a mark of quality.

I'm not singling that one out; I just happen to know something about it.

From wikipedia + googling

Teesside had ~8000 in the 90s.

Now ~30k.

 

 

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