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Flouride for children, a poll  

24 members have voted

  1. 1. Flouride in children's toothpaste is a....

    • terrible idea
      2
    • good idea
      2
    • good idea, but it should be at a low level
      8
    • question I cannot answer
      4
    • question I will not answer
      0
    • thing which I no nothing about really
      8


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I have two young children and was given a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush for each of them from the health workers not long after they were born. The toothpaste is made by a company called Sanderson and is a special low fluoride (1000ppm) family paste.

While I have always used normal fluoride toothpaste myself I did not want them using it, so bought a flouride free one instead. That's what we have used to brush their teeth so far, seems fine to me too. 

My understanding of it is as follows :

Some folk in America had no cavities, research showed it was due to the higher than normal levels of fluoride in their drinking water. Fluoride then started to be put in toothpaste, and even some water supplies. This fluoride is the same as the fluoride found in tea, naturally occuring, but different to sodium fluoride which is what is put in toothpaste. Sodium fluoride is a poison. 

I am not a chemist or a doctor, just read a bit and thought about it a bit. My wife is unsure and would probably like to err on the side of caution as far as tooth health goes, I'm more keen on erring on the side of caution as far as overall health goes.

Obviously there are some harms I cant protect my children from (I dunno, smog, pollution,radiation etc) but stuff like this I can either reduce the harm, or cut it out completely. We have no fluoride in our drinking water here, I don't know about the rest of the country though.

 

Edited by Carl Fimble

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3 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

I'm sure the Eagle on TOS could advise you at great length on this subject and provide with some great links.

:D

Thanks for the tip, I don't go there now though. Was it a subject be banged on about a bit too much? That's the impression I'm getting from your post!

o.O

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3 minutes ago, Carl Fimble said:

Thanks for the tip, I don't go there now though. Was it a subject be banged on about a bit too much? That's the impression I'm getting from your post!

o.O

Not sure of this specific subject but I would guess he'd suggest it was a wicked plot to poison everyone and/or make us all more compliant. Pretty sure he said Swine flu vaccinations were aimed at priming everyone's immune system so that we can all be killed more easily by a later epidemic. Or something similar.

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I think it's fairy irrefutable that it is a poison. The evidence about its effectiveness I am less sure about. Prevents caries but increases your risk of dementia*? Quite possibly, no such thing as a free lunch!

 

(* Insert incurable chronic condition of your choice)

Btw, for those who don't know, dental products are regulated in the same way as cosmetics, not in the same way as medications. 

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20 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

Not sure of this specific subject but I would guess he'd suggest it was a wicked plot to poison everyone and/or make us all more compliant. Pretty sure he said Swine flu vaccinations were aimed at priming everyone's immune system so that we can all be killed more easily by a later epidemic. Or something similar.

Ah, some sort of "Agenda 21" thing, relevant to the "Georgia Guidestones".... I wouldn't put it past them, the cunts that they are. I remember reading something about flouride  being used to calm people in prison camps as well. My main concern is not having poisoned children, or ones with terrible teeth problems.

Edited by Carl Fimble
put not out

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I know nothing about the toxicity or otherwise of it, only that I don't like putting any chemicals into my body that I don't have to. If it's any use, I've been using the Aloe based flouride free toothpaste for about 5 years and haven't had a single dental issue in that time - last visit to the dentist was about a month ago and I was in the chair less than 2 minutes before he pronounced me good to go.

Not sure if there would be any difference between adult and child's teeth though.

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1 minute ago, Carl Fimble said:

Ah, some sort of "Agenda 21" thing, relevant to the "Georgia Guidestones".... I wouldn't out it past them, the cunts that they are. I remember reading something about flouride  being used to calm people in prison camps as well. My main concern is not having poisoned children, or ones with terrible teeth problems.

Yes, dumbing us down! The main argument made in fringe arenas, as far as I can remember, is that flouride interferes with the pineal gland (calcifies it, IIRC) and this is considered to be the main organ associated with insight and intuition and psy powers (third eye). Apparently.

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11 minutes ago, LC1 said:

I think it's fairy irrefutable that it is a poison. The evidence about its effectiveness I am less sure about. Prevents caries but increases your risk of dementia*? Quite possibly, no such thing as a free lunch!

 

(* Insert incurable chronic condition of your choice)

Btw, for those who don't know, dental products are regulated in the same way as cosmetics, not in the same way as medications. 

I didn't know that, I wonder if toothpaste was regulated as a medicine if it's poisonous "qualities" would prevent it's sale? I am imagining if it's potential harmfulness was not offset by some amazing quality it had which safer alternatives could not match that it would not be allowed.

EDIT :

Just remember something else I read years ago when looking into the whole fluoride thing, an article said sodium fluoride was a byproduct of the nuclear industry. I think the writer was basically saying they had big piles of toxic waste lying about and the way the decided to get rid of it was to sell it to the toothpaste companies as a good thing for teeth.

I think the fluoride in tea is naturally occurring and could help with oral health, too much of the natural stuff can cause problems though even- fluorosis I think it's called....

yip :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_fluorosis

 

 

Edited by Carl Fimble
adding everything from "EDIT" onwards

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1 hour ago, Carl Fimble said:

I have two young children and was given a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush for each of them from the health workers not long after they were born. The toothpaste is made by a company called Sanderson and is a special low fluoride (1000ppm) family paste.

While I have always used normal fluoride toothpaste myself I did not want them using it, so bought a flouride free one instead. That's what we have used to brush their teeth so far, seems fine to me too. 

My understanding of it is as follows :

Some folk in America had no cavities, research showed it was due to the higher than normal levels of fluoride in their drinking water. Fluoride then started to be put in toothpaste, and even some water supplies. This fluoride is the same as the fluoride found in tea, naturally occuring, but different to sodium fluoride which is what is put in toothpaste. Sodium fluoride is a poison. 

I am not a chemist or a doctor, just read a bit and thought about it a bit. My wife is unsure and would probably like to err on the side of caution as far as tooth health goes, I'm more keen on erring on the side of caution as far as overall health goes.

Obviously there are some harms I cant protect my children from (I dunno, smog, pollution,radiation etc) but stuff like this I can either reduce the harm, or cut it out completely. We have no fluoride in our drinking water here, I don't know about the rest of the country though.

I voted to say it is a good idea in toothpaste. The mechanism by which topical applications (such as toothpaste) can improve dental health is fairly well understood, and is seemingly effective. With regard to side effects, these should be minimal if you teach your children not to swallow the toothpaste, but instead to spit, rinse and spit again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_therapy

Quote

 fluoride therapy repairs rather than prevents damage to the teeth, causing the mineral fluorapatite to be incorporated into damaged tooth enamel. Fluorapatite is not a natural component of human teeth, although it is found in the teeth of sharks. The main mineral found in natural tooth enamel is hydroxyapatite rather than the fluorapatite created in the presence of fluoride. Even without fluoride, teeth experience alternating increases and decreases in mineral content, depending upon how acidic or basic the mouth is, and depending upon the concentration of other substances in the mouth, such as phosphate and calcium.

Fluoride reduces the decay of tooth enamel by the formation of fluorapatite and its incorporation into the dental enamel. The fluoride ions reduce the rate of tooth enamel demineralization and increase the rate of remineralization of teeth at the early stages of cavities. Fluoride exerts these effects by the demineralization and remineralization cycle. The remineralization cycle, critical to decay prevention, occurs when fluoride is present in the oral cavity. After fluoride is swallowed it has a minimal effect.

I am somewhat more ambivalent about fluoridating water supplies, as the mechanism by which it works to remineralise bones seems poorly understood, and of very low efficacy. Further, the more substantial the consumption of the fluoride compounds the more substantial the probability of unanticipated long term side effects.

 

Anecdotal side note: my father who grew up during WW2 has never used toothpaste or had fluoridated water until relatively recently. He has always just brushed his teeth with water three times a day and had no fillings until he was in his 70s. Now at 88 he still has all his own teeth and just a handful of fillings in his molars. This leads me to conclude that regular and effective brushing is by far the more critical factor.

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Well, two (independent) points:

Children:

The thing about oral hygiene and children is that it is all about instilling a habit that they can take into adulthood, etc.  They're going to lose their first set of teeth anyway, so any ion-exchange / remineralisation of F<->Ca from intra-oral fluoride isn't going to make any difference.  I suppose the idea is that there'll be some ingested and thus will get incorporated into the teeth in development (and bones etc, I suppose) -- but it seems to be a bit of a haphazard way of doing things.  The risk is that if you overdo things then you'll get fluorosis in the teeth, which looks a bit unsightly (even if they are stronger than normal teeth for moderate levels of fluorosis).

When my children were young I asked the dentist whether the water in the area was fluoridated, so that we could decide whether to use fluoride toothpaste or not (ie, whether there was already enough fluoride around to support the strong teeth in development argument).  I was astonished to discover that they didn't know.  I mean -- how can you tell people to use a certain approach (fluoride toothpaste for infants based on the incidental ingestion/absorption hypothesis) when you don't even know what their base level of ingestion is!

I'd suggest that you try a low fluoride (even for infants) toothpaste as a compromise.

However, you'll probably find that they won't like it and refuse to use it, and then you'll go around everywhere trying to get something that they will like so that they can brush properly.  This sounds like a middle class sop, but it is relatively important to get children to willingly brush their teeth (and learn the skill / habit), so is probably one of those times when it is worth putting up with their stupid moans.  

Fluoride:

There is absolutely no doubt that fluoride is responsible for a substantial decrease in dental caries over the years.  Thus we've got the stuff everywhere.  But there is emerging evidence that it is partially responsible for an increase in periodontal disease.  The current emerging theories seems to be something like: the fluoride increases the risk of the gum separating from teeth, but, when it does, the fluoride hinders the growth and attack of the bacteria in the gum pocket (so it is recommended as a treatment for periodontal disease...)

I don't think there is enough evidence out there to support not using a fluoride toothpaste as an adult, but there is enough to support being a bit circumspect.  

Personally, I use a fluoride toothpaste at intervals, but mainly use a non-fluoride toothpaste.  I suppose I'm trying to get some beneficial F in to my enamel (to strengthen resistance to caries), but the main job of brushing (& flossing) is food-particulate removal and disruption of the biofilm, for which I use non-fluoride toothpaste.

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3 hours ago, Carl Fimble said:

Thanks for the tip, I don't go there now though. Was it a subject be banged on about a bit too much? That's the impression I'm getting from your post!

o.O

Maybe I'm thinking of another poster but i thought you said you weren't on ToS a few months back? I had you down as a Dosbods original....

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4 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Maybe I'm thinking of another poster but i thought you said you weren't on ToS a few months back? I had you down as a Dosbods original....

Dosbods member number 74 sir, reporting for duty!

I think I started lurking over there in 2005 ish, never posted anything as I never signed up. It was only when this site appeared that I signed up and started posting.

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2 hours ago, dgul said:

... But there is emerging evidence that it is partially responsible for an increase in periodontal disease. ...

My dentist recently mentioned that people with healthy teeth often get gum disease instead. Didn't mention fluoride though.

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4 hours ago, Fully Detached said:

I know nothing about the toxicity or otherwise of it, only that I don't like putting any chemicals into my body that I don't have to. If it's any use, I've been using the Aloe based flouride free toothpaste for about 5 years and haven't had a single dental issue in that time - last visit to the dentist was about a month ago and I was in the chair less than 2 minutes before he pronounced me good to go.

Not sure if there would be any difference between adult and child's teeth though.

I’ve been using Flouride free toothpaste for about ten years now. Like you I’m not keen on unnecessary or possibly harmful chemicals so try to avoid as many as I can. I’ve read about flouride and am undecided whether it’s ok or not.

Before switching to flouride free toothpaste I was going through a phase of terrible problems with bleeding gums and frequent abscesses. It was so bad that a lost a lot of my upper back teeth. This went on for several years. I was scared I was going to lose all my teeth!

After a few months of using flouride free toothpaste my gums stopped bleeding and I’ve had no dental problems at all for the past ten years.

 

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26 minutes ago, Economic Exile said:

I’ve been using Flouride free toothpaste for about ten years now. Like you I’m not keen on unnecessary or possibly harmful chemicals so try to avoid as many as I can. I’ve read about flouride and am undecided whether it’s ok or not.

Before switching to flouride free toothpaste I was going through a phase of terrible problems with bleeding gums and frequent abscesses. It was so bad that a lost a lot of my upper back teeth. This went on for several years. I was scared I was going to lose all my teeth!

After a few months of using flouride free toothpaste my gums stopped bleeding and I’ve had no dental problems at all for the past ten years.

 

Now you mention it, I also used to suffer with bleeding gums when I brushed my teeth, but I haven't had that happen for years now, apart from the odd incident where I accidentally stab myself with the toothbrush. But I have switched to an electric brush in that time, so that is probably more likely the cause as they clean so much better.

Glad to know you've had no issues either after switching either - I must confess, I was worried before my first two dentist appointments after switching - I had this horrible notion that he was going to say, "Ah, I see you switched to flouride free" before announcing that I had 20 cavities and 7 teeth that needed pulling :D

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2 minutes ago, Fully Detached said:

Now you mention it, I also used to suffer with bleeding gums when I brushed my teeth, but I haven't had that happen for years now, apart from the odd incident where I accidentally stab myself with the toothbrush. But I have switched to an electric brush in that time, so that is probably more likely the cause as they clean so much better.

Glad to know you've had no issues either after switching either - I must confess, I was worried before my first two dentist appointments after switching - I had this horrible notion that he was going to say, "Ah, I see you switched to flouride free" before announcing that I had 20 cavities and 7 teeth that needed pulling :D

I got a new dentist about six years ago when the old one retired.

The new one was just out of dental school and seemed to like lecturing 9_9 

About five years ago I dropped the bombshell that I’d been using flouride free toothpaste for five years and felt my gums and mouth were much healthier for it. She chastised me and warned me of dire consequences ahead. 

I’m sure she hates seeing me enter her room for a check up as I always like to have a little rave about how good I think flouride free toothpaste is and how long it is since I’ve had any tooth or gum problems :D

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40 minutes ago, Fully Detached said:

Now you mention it, I also used to suffer with bleeding gums when I brushed my teeth, but I haven't had that happen for years now, apart from the odd incident where I accidentally stab myself with the toothbrush. But I have switched to an electric brush in that time, so that is probably more likely the cause as they clean so much better.

Glad to know you've had no issues either after switching either - I must confess, I was worried before my first two dentist appointments after switching - I had this horrible notion that he was going to say, "Ah, I see you switched to flouride free" before announcing that I had 20 cavities and 7 teeth that needed pulling :D

This is interesting.

I cut down on the fluoride (to only once or twice a week) about 7 years ago (or so) but didn't tell my dentist.  She keeps on telling me that I'm doing much better with my dental hygiene and that many of the gum problems have got much better.  I don't tell her that I've not actually changed my behaviour, just not using fluoride...

Edited by dgul

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I voted "good idea, but it should be at a low level".
For my 16 month old, we are using 1000ppm and the label states you should only use a smear.

Toxicity isn't just about the substance, it's about the dosage. Yes, sodium fluoride is toxic, but so are salt, water, paracetamol by different mechanisms at different dosages.

I'm not informed enough to know whether fluoride is a good thing or a bad thing, but we're told it is so I've not put any research into it. Prompted by this though, I will. May well update with my thoughts if I remember

 

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This gum health aspect is fascinating

Based on this tiny sample, I am seriously considering changing to non-flouride toothpaste.

Will look into it a bit more....

 

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15 hours ago, Carl Fimble said:

Five- like these?

billy-bob-products-billy-bob-teeth-hunti

Can I ask, did you use a fluoride toothpaste?

Child,

I was far too old to benefit when it first came out.

Most of my teeth had already rotted.

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1 hour ago, Byron said:

Child,

I was far too old to benefit when it first came out.

Most of my teeth had already rotted.

Ah, back when you rubbed your teeth with a twig and some ash from the fire?

Were you keen on sweets as a youngster I wonder? 

I'm due a visit to the dentist and it is almost certain that they are going to say I need work. Dreading it, partly as I'm not keen on people messing with my mouth, and partly cos it's going to cost money I could do with putting somewhere else.

I think I will start using fluoride free toothpaste, maybe not the strawberry flavoured one my boys use though.

 

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I've been inspired to try fluoride free toothpaste by this thread - my teeth are fine but my gums aren't great. I've been using Colgate's special gum health toothpaste but it doesn't seem to be helping much.

I got this one off Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01CWYES90/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's got a nice, mild cinnamon flavour which is a welcome change to the normal mint flavour. I'm tempted to try one of the kids' fruity flavours next. 

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