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Don't burst into tears when you read this. It's so terribly sad......


swiss_democracy_for_all

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spygirl

Thee appears to be a lot misssing in those stories.

Joan Keeley used to own eight properties with her then-partner. The mortgages were with Kent Reliance, now owned by One Savings Bank.

She said her properties were worth around £1.5m in 2010 and the outstanding mortgages totalled just £90,000. At today’s values, she reckons the properties would be worth around £3m.

Ms Keeley said: “The financial damage and personal damage the bank has caused is immeasurable. I don’t even have money for my funeral and my children and grandchildren have been denied an inheritance.”

 
Joan Keeley said her properties were worth around £1.5m in 2010 – worth around £3m in today's value - Christopher Pledger
Joan Keeley said her properties were worth around £1.5m in 2010 – worth around £3m in today's value - Christopher Pledger© Provided by The Telegraph

Once living in a five-bedroom detached house, Ms Keeley now rents a small one-bedroom flat on benefits.

After the financial crash, Ms Keeley said she was in contact with “hundreds” of people who had experienced similar – or far greater – losses. Now, she says, many have died, given up fighting or, in some cases, taken their own lives.

 

Back in 2008, Ms Keeley’s lender offered her and her partner a three-month payment holiday which they took. But she said they later discovered it didn’t show up on their statements

“We kept asking for a breakdown of the accounts. Eventually, we refused to pay the mortgage until they showed us the accounts. We were only in arrears for two months. They never gave us those accounts.”

Once the couple went into arrears, the bank said they owed a collective £18,500 – despite part of that amount relating to a pre-arranged mortgage holiday.

After appointing receivers, Kent Reliance sold the properties between 2012 and 2014. 

Ms Keeley took the receivers to court after she lost her properties. She won, but then it went to an appeal and she lost – meaning a further £26,000 bill was added to her mortgage accounts.

A spokesman for Kent Reliance said: “This customer’s rental property portfolio fell into substantial mortgage arrears over a number of years. 

 

“Despite assistance and extensive forbearance being provided to the customer the arrears persisted, ultimately leading the bank to appoint LPA receivers. 

“The case has been reviewed by the regulator and the Financial Ombudsman Service, and at every stage the bank’s position has been upheld.”

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wherebee

building societies don't want to repossess or fight in the courts if they can avoid it.  I'd bet a silver dollar the borrowers were in arrears a hell of a lot and eventually just became too much hassle - more than the hassle of legal action.

 

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spygirl

One thing I've pointed out repeatedly is BTL iscommercial lending.

Banks can n do call in loans at a short notice.

I know SME with 10s of employees, low millions revenue who balk at bank lending of a few 100k  cos of this.

Yet you IO BTL ramping up borrowing to the low millions clueless.

https://www.smealliance.org/blog/joan-keeley-blog-on-lpa-receivers

When we received a letter in May 2010, advising us that our eight buy-to-let properties had been put into LPA receivership, we really hadn't a clue what this meant and we have since found out, that most of the thousands of others this has happened to had also never heard of LPA receivership, let alone being aware that this was an option for their bank to resort to under the terms of their mortgage agreement.

At the time this happened, we were in dispute with our bank, the Kent Reliance Building Society, over alleged arrears, we had time and again asked the bank for a detailed breakdown of our accounts as we knew there were discrepancies and the only paperwork we received from them were annual statements which were very basic and lacking in any detail. For instance, we had a payment holiday and this was not detailed on our statements and we were simply requesting clarification of our position. All our mortgages were interest only and yet our outstanding balance was less than the amount we had borrowed and we wanted, we thought quite reasonably, to find out how we had reached this situation.

The bank made no attempt to help us and would not or could not provide the account details we requested and, stupidly as we now know, we stopped our monthly mortgage payments which resulted in the bank making a formal demand for the alleged arrears. Still, the bank could not or would not provide the information we had requested and before long there followed a demand for payment of all of the mortgages in full with a threat of court action if we did not comply.

The threat of court proceedings didn't seem a bad option as at least the bank would need to provide the information we had repeatedly requested but without any notice of it's change of tack, two weeks later, we received the letter to inform us that the LPA receivers had been appointed.

The following days and weeks were spent frantically attempting to ascertain what had happened and what this all meant. We contacted numerous lawyers and organisations and got nowhere. It seemed that the part of this antiquated law which the bank had used, was an area which few seemed to be familiar with. We felt isolated and totally bewildered. Eventually, we began to fit the pieces together after spending hours searching on the internet, we even managed to make contact with others in a similar situation and it gradually became obvious that our predicament was not unique - in actual fact, thousand of other people were victims. These people mostly seemed to have had mortgages with Mortgage Express but there were other banks and building societies using the same loophole in the law, such as Yorkshire Building Society, Chelsea etc. It became apparent that the banks were all jumping on the same bandwagon and using their power to appoint LPA receivers,some in a way which seemed questionable. For instance, I heard of receivers being appointed because of historic arrears eg mortgage payments missed maybe two years earlier. It became apparent that LPA receivership is a way for banks to rid themselves of unwanted mortgages whilst remaining at arms length. Once appointed the LPA receiver becomes the agent of the borrower and the bank should not interfere and therefore is able to have it's 'dirty work' done whilst remaining at arms length.

Our alleged arrears when the receivers were appointed was £18,500 (still disputed) and our properties were all tenanted and in excellent condition and in positive equity. Four and a half years later, all the properties have been sold and we have been left with a debt of £328,000 brought about by the receivers carrying out expensive and mostly, unnecessary work on the properties and then the properties being sold below value. When the rents didn't cover the work they did, the receivers simply sent the invoice to the bank who would cover the cost of the work and add it to our mortgage accounts.

The receivers 'sold' five of the properties over a period of two and a half years but then we were able to prove in court that the receivers did not have the Power of Sale a point the Land Registry later acknowledged but by that time the transfers on two of three of the properties had been processed and the bank stepped in and submitted new transfers as mortgagee in possession. The receivers had fraudulently signed official documents but no matter who I contacted, we could do nothing about it. Following this, the bank quickly sold the remaining three properties as mortgagees in possession.

This is a very brief overview of our situation which has resulted in us losing our business and home. I now live in rented accommodation and on benefits with no prospect of ever improving my situation unless by some miracle I am able to obtain compensation for the many wrongdoings of the bank and the receivers.

I feel very strongly, as I know many others do, that there needs to be an urgent change in the law to prevent banks using LPA receivers as they are presently doing. LPA receivers are TOTALLY unregulated and therefore operate under the radar of all authority while they spend our money to line their pockets and those of the contractors and lawyers they instruct.

Thank you for reading this.

 

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spygirl

Again, btl are commercial mortgages.

Bank flips the responsibility to LPA who aim for the best price in a short period.

The only reason to get a payment holiday is cos you can't afford tge mortgage payments.

If she only had a 90k IO mortgage, then she could have got quick, short term finance in place, with houses as security.

She's bullshiiting.

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swiss_democracy_for_all

If the story has much truth in it, sounds like if a Dosbodder could get a job as an LPA receiver, they could spend their days trashing the lives of BTL landlords.

@Frank Hovis are you qualified?

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Frank Hovis
55 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

If the story has much truth in it, sounds like if a Dosbodder could get a job as an LPA receiver, they could spend their days trashing the lives of BTL landlords.

@Frank Hovis are you qualified?

 

I had a quick look and no, you have to be an insolvency practitioner in the first place.  I worked with someone at an audit firm who went down this route at that firm.

 

Mind, I can top that eight.

‘I was a landlord with 57 homes – then the banks repossessed them all’

Debt collectors make clearing arrears difficult so David Northrop lost £25m in assets

Ruby Hinchliffe, Money Reporter 30 May 2024 • 4:10pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buying-selling/landlord-repossessed-mortgage-arrears-rent/

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spygirl
45 minutes ago, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

If the story has much truth in it, sounds like if a Dosbodder could get a job as an LPA receiver, they could spend their days trashing the lives of BTL landlords.

@Frank Hovis are you qualified?

Again, BTL is commercial lending.

Commercial loans a are atthe whim of the lending bank.

If the bank doesnt like the level of lending it has in an area or sector then they call commercial loans in. Just like that.

The other fuckwit -

David Northrop was once a landlord with a portfolio of 57 homes – but 10 years ago the banks repossessed them all.

His properties, which were rented out to social tenants, were confiscated by the banks, transferred into the hands of property debt collectors – known as LPA receivers – and sold off at auction.

Altogether, Mr Northrop lost around £11m in assets – or £25m in today’s value.

The reason for his undoing was three-fold. It started with the HBOS Reading scandal in the early 2000s, in which innocent business owners fell victim to a £250m loans scam run by corrupt staff and consultants. Overnight, the bank, now part of Lloyds, deemed landlords like Mr Northrop as ‘risky’.

HBOS took their properties, sold them at a discount, paid off the mortgages on them and put the remainder towards ‘consultancy fees’. These fees were shared with senior bankers, who reportedly spent them on trips to Barbados, Rolex watches, drugs and prostitutes.

Then in 2009, Gordon Brown’s government decided to start paying housing benefit directly to council tenants – throwing landlords like Mr Northrop into rent arrears.

Arrears would build up for two or three months at a time, Mr Northrop said, before he would try to pay them down by making alternative arrangements with individual tenants – many of them single mothers. 

But once the banks began to appoint LPA receivers he could no longer access his properties, collect any rent or negotiate selling some homes to clear the arrears.

LPA receivers have never had to be licensed insolvency practitioners, and buy-to-let borrowing is still largely unregulated by the Financial Conduct Authority – unlike residential mortgages. 

This, victims of LPA receivership say, is why so many property owners lost what were essentially their pensions after 2008 – and the banks’ shift in appetite from asset-building to cash flow only exacerbated their losses.

Now, history could be about to repeat itself.

I wonder if hes got a copy of the TnCs.

He very likely to find that BTL, even back in the 00s banned lending to social tenants.

And for very good reasons - a HBtenant is found to illegally claiming HB then the DSS will class the money back from the LL.

Heres the relevant bits -

David Northrop was once a landlord with a portfolio of 57 homes

Altogether, Mr Northrop lost around £11m in assets

Overnight, the bank, now part of Lloyds, deemed landlords like Mr Northrop as ‘risky’.

Then in 2009, Gordon Brown’s government decided to start paying housing benefit directly to council tenants – throwing landlords like Mr Northrop into rent arrears.

Arrears would build up for two or three months at a time, Mr Northrop said, before he would try to pay them down by making alternative arrangements with individual tenants – many of them single mothers. 

Idiot LL borrows 1mm from idiot bank., IO mortgages.

Idiot bank goes bust, bought by a bank which had slightly higher lendign standards.

At this point, all commercial lending by HBOS would be flagged as suspect.

Idiot LL tenants start spendig nthe rent money. I

Idiot LL starts defaulting on a commercial loan,

I cant stres how much of ano-o that it - Idiot LL has1mm of IO mortgages and nhes not paying the mortgage FFS

New bank finds out the idiot LL should not have rented to social; tenants - for good reason, and calls in commercial loans .flipping process to LPA.

The HBOS Reading scam is BS.

That was happened years before he was repo'd

https://www.cityam.com/another-post-office-hbos-reading-fraud-scandal-report-delayed-yet-again/

And that was about the bank selling sohisticated products.

 

 

 

 

 

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wherebee

That case might be different as the HBOS business attack team were utter scum - they deffo shut down viable businesses due to the bonuses and backhanders they were getting.

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swiss_democracy_for_all
Just now, wherebee said:

That case might be different as the HBOS business attack team were utter scum - they deffo shut down viable businesses due to the bonuses and backhanders they were getting.

That might be true, but leveraged largeish scale property purchasing and renting them out to the lowest part of the socio-economic spectrum should be handled by housing associations and councils IMO, not sure it's a good business.

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Virgil Caine
Posted (edited)

People rarely go suddenly bankrupt. They normally have been bankrupt for sometime before the reality catches up with them (ie the have made bad decisions based on income projections, market demand or suppliers orders in good times which find them out the moment things change).

Edited by Virgil Caine
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Pip321

I have seen this from the finance companies viewpoint and tbf in my experience borrowers are fine but once you cross the line….well you have crossed the line. At that point everyone is going to make a killing from the transaction, well except the guy in default. That’s why they feel victimised but the reality is there will have been lots of chances before that to sell, consolidate and scale back. The denial kicks in because it’s like winning the lottery and then deciding to go double or quits on a coin toss…..and losing everything  

Very rare to find someone who has been repossessed who has just says “yep, my fault”….so these stories are very one sided.

I have also seen these from the buying side…..some terrific bargains if you act fast and make decisions quickly. I bought a repo where I had previously tried to buy the flat. It was £220k, then £170k and I offered £150k but was refused because it hadn’t been through ‘the rigorous process to achieve best price’. Best way to demonstrate an attempt to get best price was an auction….so I paid £122k at auction.

I ace used debt for tax advantages and some leverage…..but always had enough in the bank to clear if need be. Zero interest rates made a lot of people feel invincible and lose respect for what debt can do. That lives in now.

Great read though…thanks for posting. Clearly the victims are telling us everything but as I say they never do. They probably have even forgotten what they ‘may’ have done wrong….and put it all down to bad luck and being victimised. 

No one else borrows money to buy a pension….but they kid themselves that it’s their money being invested and it just never was.😉

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King Penda
On 31/05/2024 at 08:26, Frank Hovis said:

 

I had a quick look and no, you have to be an insolvency practitioner in the first place.  I worked with someone at an audit firm who went down this route at that firm.

 

Mind, I can top that eight.

‘I was a landlord with 57 homes – then the banks repossessed them all’

Debt collectors make clearing arrears difficult so David Northrop lost £25m in assets

Ruby Hinchliffe, Money Reporter 30 May 2024 • 4:10pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/buying-selling/landlord-repossessed-mortgage-arrears-rent/

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

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honkydonkey
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, King Penda said:

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

Accidental landlord seems like a common one. Just make sure you accidently buy the next one, like you were going out for some milk but ended up buying a house. 

Edited by honkydonkey
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spygirl
On 31/05/2024 at 08:37, swiss_democracy_for_all said:

That might be true, but leveraged largeish scale property purchasing and renting them out to the lowest part of the socio-economic spectrum should be handled by housing associations and councils IMO, not sure it's a good business.

I draw the parallel of IO BTL to social tenants to a a Ferrari car hire loaning out to dunk drivers.

 

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spygirl
On 01/06/2024 at 21:03, Pip321 said:

I have seen this from the finance companies viewpoint and tbf in my experience borrowers are fine but once you cross the line….well you have crossed the line. At that point everyone is going to make a killing from the transaction, well except the guy in default. That’s why they feel victimised but the reality is there will have been lots of chances before that to sell, consolidate and scale back. The denial kicks in because it’s like winning the lottery and then deciding to go double or quits on a coin toss…..and losing everything  

Very rare to find someone who has been repossessed who has just says “yep, my fault”….so these stories are very one sided.

I have also seen these from the buying side…..some terrific bargains if you act fast and make decisions quickly. I bought a repo where I had previously tried to buy the flat. It was £220k, then £170k and I offered £150k but was refused because it hadn’t been through ‘the rigorous process to achieve best price’. Best way to demonstrate an attempt to get best price was an auction….so I paid £122k at auction.

I ace used debt for tax advantages and some leverage…..but always had enough in the bank to clear if need be. Zero interest rates made a lot of people feel invincible and lose respect for what debt can do. That lives in now.

Great read though…thanks for posting. Clearly the victims are telling us everything but as I say they never do. They probably have even forgotten what they ‘may’ have done wrong….and put it all down to bad luck and being victimised. 

No one else borrows money to buy a pension….but they kid themselves that it’s their money being invested and it just never was.😉

Id disagree with making a killing, although that what it looks like.

To keep the process above board and prevent being sued a bank has to flip it to LPA, who will also do the same - get surveyors in, use the the same builder, decorators to tidy the place up, get it on the market, the mark the place down for 6 months and, if no interest, of to auction.

These are all involve different parties, each will take their cut. Thats just the way it works - professional =  costly.

IM sure if the house was given to a couple of ladies at the banks theyd be able to do it a lot cheaper  and achieve a better  price.

However a couple of ladies on the tills just wont stand up legally if  it goes to court.

 

 

Its mainly the short time frame that gets prices down. Most people dont tend to get repo'd during a boom.

People dont grasp that the market vlaue of a house can by 50% less than they think.

Daft make-it-up EAs dont help.

A brothers buying a place in v North Lincs.

I had a look at price history. Originally listed as 210k 12 months ago. Down to 150k now.

 

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spygirl
5 hours ago, King Penda said:

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

Don't know much about history. Don't know much biology. Don't know much about a science book. Don't know much about the French I took...

Thing is you, by lifestyle, have a much better grasp of money debt and how itll fuck you up.

In my 30y of work, chatting to people earning in the top 5%, Oxbridge degrees etc etc.

You be surprised how many highly educated have come up with something along lines of -

We are really pushing our borrowing and itll be tight for 5y but house dont fall, well, not London ....

And Im like - what happens if one of lose your job or GF gets knocked up?

And here we are, non Prime i..e mortgaged London has been falling for almost 12 years.

Not that youll hear many people state that.

 

 

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Andersen
5 hours ago, King Penda said:

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

It's even more confusing than you think, you might even get a called a first time landlord O.o

Ask a lender to send you their written definition of FT-LL (don't accept what the wage slave"Advisor" tells you - there's a good chance they don't actually know), USA website but UK are similar https://www.tchabitat.org/blog/first-time-homebuyer-definition

ps yes Twat !

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Frank Hovis
5 hours ago, King Penda said:

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

 

There was a time when that made sense but with no fault evictions, rent controls, and HMRC doing their job properly then it's probably not a brilliant idea at present.

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spygirl
6 hours ago, King Penda said:

I’m a thick retarded twat but I could in theory rent my hovel out (morgage free ) and buy another humble terrace with a small morgage .  Would I be classed has a btl landlord or is there another name for it ? Obviously other than twat .  

Id add -

You know your limits.

That puts you well in the top 30% of thinkers.

 

 

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King Penda
3 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

 

There was a time when that made sense but with no fault evictions, rent controls, and HMRC doing their job properly then it's probably not a brilliant idea at present.

Dead true labour will team them

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