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sarahbell

The current NHS crisis

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http://www.clactonandfrintongazette.co.uk/news/15810659.UPDATED__Pensioner__81__found_dead_at_home_in_Clacton_after_waiting_almost_4_hours_for_ambulance/

Horror stories about people waiting in ambulances outside A&E, thus delaying these ambulances going and fetching more people.

So some places manage this really well and most don't. The ones that do - was it Burnley? They have wards where they discharge people from hospital to, with care workers giving 'nursing home' style care. Thus freeing up beds with nurses for sick people, not just the infirm elderly who don't get sent home quick enough.

it probably works even better because the old people are then fed and watered and kept warm, with enough attention to notice if they deteriate. Thus stopping them being readmited to A&E. 

Those places that triage A&E before people are let in  - usually using GPs - also manage really well to eliminate much of the nonsensical use of A&E.

 

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30 minutes ago, satch said:

Am I the only one who think this is a bit of 'poor me' I am so over worked and we will show this right wing nasty government why we need more money, as more money solves every problem. No one is allowed to critise the saints that are the NHS, if you do you must be a racist, nazi, brexit supporter who likes seeing old people and babies die a 'orrible death.

Sure they might be a bit busy because of the winter and flu but most jobs have busy and lean times throughout the year.

From my observation there is s constant fear in the NHS top to bottom that the service they offer will be cut or reorganised 

The response to this is to constantly repeat the mantra of over worked and under resourced 

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It is clearly a sad case, but the reporting is infantile in the 'something must be done!'

Tell us what the problem is.  There were 4,200 calls in the area that day, against a 'normal' of 3,000.  

Is this normal for a bank holiday? Normal for a Monday?  Don't know.  They don't tell us.  So we don't know if the 4,200 is actually exceptional or is just within normal weekly variations.

Of the 4,200 calls, how many were emergency?  How many called by institutions like care-homes by the regular shift coming on duty?  How many were 'speculative' by organisations that didn't want to be sued?  

In this specific case I'm guessing that she was put through a triage and the woman was insecure in her belief that she was ill so just said something like 'I'm not sure, I feel very odd and there is a strange pain', and the medic thought it was likely to be indigestion and so put them on the 'go round when you've got time' list. 

[OTOH, my aunt, who abuses A&E something rotten, always moans of the pain being '10/10', etc.  Yet when she actually did have an emergency with blood pouring out of her foot spent the night with her leg elevated because the queues are too long at night.]

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I dont have have figuires as I dont work i nthe NHS. But I doubt even people who do work inthe NHS either.

Ive visited the local, regional hospital twice this year - only to visit people I knew in there. Once in summer,. once in late Nov.

The most striking thing was the number of OAPs in beds. Id guess about 50% of the surgery wards were being used as a very expensive old folks homes.

Thats shocking. It also smells of a make work scheme - each acute bed requires x number of skilled staff - nurses, consultants, etc etc.

By filling up capacity with people who dont need to be in a hosital you are doubling your paid work but halving the effort.

Iff hospitals were better at keeping OAPs out of the wards then there would the spare capacity to handle winter spikes.

There was an opion piecei nthe the FT - Sorry if not enough

https://www.ft.com/content/cb2222ae-f210-11e7-b220-857e26d1aca4

Levelof dumb fuckwittery normally seen in the So-Called BBC - heal;th cuts (There have been no fucking health cuts, the budget is still rising FFS). overwokred etc etc.

Then theres another article in the same paper:

https://www.ft.com/content/a13600ce-f17e-11e7-ac08-07c3086a2625

 

'For example, in Yeovil in Somerset, a part of the west country that is home to many retirees, health leaders found just 4 per cent of local people were between them consuming up to 50 per cent of the health and social care budget. They now employ coaches — cheaper than clinicians — to support those people to stay healthier.'

Which just shows how much money is spent on a small number of people.

And if they can use a coach and save money then that is more reason for a contribution based health system with a hefty bit of surcharging.

The NHS just comes across more and more as mess - just look at UK health outcomes, they are dire.

 


 

 

 

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I often think it strange that if you have an injured/ diseased pet you'd put it out of its misery. However you're meant to keep diseased family members alive for as long as you can.... 

I honestly think we spend too much on people that have no hope of being "fixed". When I was a kid you wouldn't see kids in wheelchairs that were clearly incapable of looking after themselves. However you seem to see a fair amount of kids in wheelchairs nowadays. Each of these kids must cost £100k plus a year... 

My brother volunteers at a hospice where there are kids with "locked in" syndrome. This means they can't move etc. Are we doing the right thing by keeping them alive? Imagine lying on a bed and you can't move or speak and you have an itch etc. it honestly sounds like a version of hell.

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Just now, Great Guy said:

I often think it strange that if you have an injured/ diseased pet you'd put it out of its misery. However you're meant to keep diseased family members alive for as long as you can.... 

if you have pet insurance you can torture your pets medically now too

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Posted (edited)

'NHS in crisis' is a standard journalistic go-to in the January quiet period, like stories about kids  being sent home with the wrong uniform in September. It's been like that as long as I can remember. I seem to recall the so-called so-called BBC even pre-empted the scare stories in the autumn of 2016 (or was it '15?) by doing a whole series about the coming crisis in the winter before it even happened. 

One thing's for certain, the So-Called BBC won't be mentioning the recent guests to these isles as having any effect on the NHS other than to make it work more effectively because so many of them are doctors, nurses and medical technologists. 

That said, Clacton and the Tendring Hundred area is one of the least 'enriched' parts of England, even Colchester is fairly white, so there may not be a connection in this particular case. 

Edited by Austin Allegro

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58 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

I often think it strange that if you have an injured/ diseased pet you'd put it out of its misery. However you're meant to keep diseased family members alive for as long as you can.... 

I honestly think we spend too much on people that have no hope of being "fixed". When I was a kid you wouldn't see kids in wheelchairs that were clearly incapable of looking after themselves. However you seem to see a fair amount of kids in wheelchairs nowadays. Each of these kids must cost £100k plus a year... 

My brother volunteers at a hospice where there are kids with "locked in" syndrome. This means they can't move etc. Are we doing the right thing by keeping them alive? Imagine lying on a bed and you can't move or speak and you have an itch etc. it honestly sounds like a version of hell.

I'm with you on this and a bit like Sarah saying about pet insurance meaning you can torture a pet, if your insurance won't do it then there are plenty of animal shelters charities that like to eek this stuff out thanks to donations from the public. Reminds me of a cat a few months back on my facebook page that couldn't walk and was incontinent but they continued to treat it and ask for donations for operations. Bloody ridiculous, imo. 

On a similar vain, my 86 year old father developed an infection in his hip 6 months ago and spent 12 weeks in hospital where they were still not able to get on top of the infection. They removed the hip and cemented it for the time being and sent him home. Home seemed to help in as much as he has fought off the infection and is now waiting for a new hip. He has been given a date 3 times and each time it is cancelled. My parents don't seem to get that an 86 year old that is currently being taken care of by his wife and isn't in pain is not a priority for a new hip. We've all tried to tell him to just pay privately for it because they have the money, most don't, and he can regain some quality of life. Sadly my father has worked all his life, saved hard and not had any benefits as such. He's certainly not been any drain on the NHS and feels let down. that now he needs it he can't have it but, as I say, how is a man of his age a priority. He simply isn't to anyone other than his family.

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1 hour ago, Great Guy said:

I often think it strange that if you have an injured/ diseased pet you'd put it out of its misery. However you're meant to keep diseased family members alive for as long as you can.... 

I honestly think we spend too much on people that have no hope of being "fixed". When I was a kid you wouldn't see kids in wheelchairs that were clearly incapable of looking after themselves. However you seem to see a fair amount of kids in wheelchairs nowadays. Each of these kids must cost £100k plus a year... 

My brother volunteers at a hospice where there are kids with "locked in" syndrome. This means they can't move etc. Are we doing the right thing by keeping them alive? Imagine lying on a bed and you can't move or speak and you have an itch etc. it honestly sounds like a version of hell.

Im OK with kids in wheelchairs.

I get to see kids basically being pushed around on ICU unit on wheels.

Very sad for the fmaily. They start off - well the oman does - we can have a normal life.

10-18 years later, after all the time for the siblings has been spent wheedling a cabbge to and from hopsital, wipings its arse, listening t to scream and howl, it dies.

What a waste of ~200k/y.

 

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6 minutes ago, Battenberg said:

I'm with you on this and a bit like Sarah saying about pet insurance meaning you can torture a pet, if your insurance won't do it then there are plenty of animal shelters charities that like to eek this stuff out thanks to donations from the public. Reminds me of a cat a few months back on my facebook page that couldn't walk and was incontinent but they continued to treat it and ask for donations for operations. Bloody ridiculous, imo. 

On a similar vain, my 86 year old father developed an infection in his hip 6 months ago and spent 12 weeks in hospital where they were still not able to get on top of the infection. They removed the hip and cemented it for the time being and sent him home. Home seemed to help in as much as he has fought off the infection and is now waiting for a new hip. He has been given a date 3 times and each time it is cancelled. My parents don't seem to get that an 86 year old that is currently being taken care of by his wife and isn't in pain is not a priority for a new hip. We've all tried to tell him to just pay privately for it because they have the money, most don't, and he can regain some quality of life. Sadly my father has worked all his life, saved hard and not had any benefits as such. He's certainly not been any drain on the NHS and feels let down. that now he needs it he can't have it but, as I say, how is a man of his age a priority. He simply isn't to anyone other than his family.

The feckless know how this works.  Your family clearly don't.

I'd imagine the way forwards would be to claim at every opportunity that pain is at 8/10 and that the immobility is affecting his memory (or something).  if you can claim that he's being discriminated against all the better.

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1 hour ago, Great Guy said:

I often think it strange that if you have an injured/ diseased pet you'd put it out of its misery. However you're meant to keep diseased family members alive for as long as you can.... 

I honestly think we spend too much on people that have no hope of being "fixed". When I was a kid you wouldn't see kids in wheelchairs that were clearly incapable of looking after themselves. However you seem to see a fair amount of kids in wheelchairs nowadays. Each of these kids must cost £100k plus a year... 

My brother volunteers at a hospice where there are kids with "locked in" syndrome. This means they can't move etc. Are we doing the right thing by keeping them alive? Imagine lying on a bed and you can't move or speak and you have an itch etc. it honestly sounds like a version of hell.

I don't know and am guessing here but I would think that a lot of the kids in wheelchairs/disabled is linked to the massive strides that have been made in keeping younger and younger premature babies alive. 

The other is the number of people who seem to view marrying your cousin as appropriate. 

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27 minutes ago, spygirl said:

 

I get to see kids basically being pushed around on ICU unit on wheels.

Very sad for the fmaily. They start off - well the oman does - we can have a normal life.

10-18 years later, after all the time for the siblings has been spent wheedling a cabbge to and from hopsital, wipings its arse, listening t to scream and howl, it dies.

What a waste of ~200k/y.

 

I had an ancestor that was a midwife before the start of the NHS. Seemingly before the welfare state babies that were born disabled were killed at birth... Let's face it, a hundred years ago the average working family wouldn't have the money to look after a non productive kid.

The NHS has limited resources. What's better, ten hip operations a year or looking after a disabled kid who will never get better.....

I can't also help thinking disabled people shouldn't be allowed to have children if they will be born disabled.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, sarahbell said:

http://www.clactonandfrintongazette.co.uk/news/15810659.UPDATED__Pensioner__81__found_dead_at_home_in_Clacton_after_waiting_almost_4_hours_for_ambulance/

Horror stories about people waiting in ambulances outside A&E, thus delaying these ambulances going and fetching more people.

So some places manage this really well and most don't. The ones that do - was it Burnley? They have wards where they discharge people from hospital to, with care workers giving 'nursing home' style care. Thus freeing up beds with nurses for sick people, not just the infirm elderly who don't get sent home quick enough.

it probably works even better because the old people are then fed and watered and kept warm, with enough attention to notice if they deteriate. Thus stopping them being readmited to A&E. 

Those places that triage A&E before people are let in  - usually using GPs - also manage really well to eliminate much of the nonsensical use of A&E.

 

The issue is that there are large numbers of people in beds who are too ill to go home but are not so sick that they require acute care. Discharge them too soon and they may well reappear out of the back of an ambulance in A&E where the whole costly reappraisal process starts again. The hospital therefore keeps them on the ward until they are fit to discharge blocking an acute bed. Back in the 1970s most health authorities had geriatric or convalescent facilities where such people could be sent but they were nearly all axed when ' Care In The Community' was all the rage. The problem is that the latter which now usually involves one or two 20 minute visits from a carer is completely inadequate to meet the needs of patients and the GPs who are technically responsible for the health needs of patients can't be arsed to visit them . There needs to be a return to some sort of intermediate convalescent care staffed by nursing auxiliaries with a few fully trained nurses and doctors to supplement them. This NHS crisis is really about the current state of aftercare .

Edited by Virgil Caine

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22 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

I had an ancestor that was a midwife before the start of the NHS. Seemingly before the welfare state babies that were born disabled were killed at birth... Let's face it, a hundred years ago the average working family wouldn't have the money to look after a non productive kid.

The NHS has limited resources. What's better, ten hip operations a year or looking after a disabled kid who will never get better.....

I can't also help thinking disabled people shouldn't be allowed to have children if they will be born disabled.

one of my kids was given a life expectancy of 2,he could not walk,talk,eat,was tube fed and sedated at night he died at 12 in his sleep,science has moved on but at what cost emotionaly and financialy.ps marrying your cousin brings huge risk of genetic problems

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3 minutes ago, stokiescum said:

one of my kids was given a life expectancy of 2,he could not walk,talk,eat,was tube fed and sedated at night he died at 12 in his sleep,science has moved on but at what cost emotionaly and financialy.ps marrying your cousin brings huge risk of genetic problems

It must have been hard for you and your family. I can't help thinking the needs of the other siblings aren't taken into account when looking after disabled kids. It must be hard not getting to go on holiday etc because your sibling is severely disabled.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, One percent said:

I don't know and am guessing here but I would think that a lot of the kids in wheelchairs/disabled is linked to the massive strides that have been made in keeping younger and younger premature babies alive. 

The other is the number of people who seem to view marrying your cousin as appropriate. 

Disabilities can be congenital but they can also be acquired due to accident or illness.

If someone is left severely disabled by a terrorist attack they are going to require care just the same as someone who is born with a condition.

The biggest single cause of long term disability in the UK I  believe are strokes and brain injuries caused by by things such as road traffic accidents.

Changing your race or gender is difficult but unfortunately joining the disabled is all too easy.

Edited by Virgil Caine

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25 minutes ago, Great Guy said:

It must have been hard for you and your family. I can't help thinking the needs of the other siblings aren't taken into account when looking after disabled kids. It must be hard not getting to go on holiday etc because your sibling is severely disabled.

yes he was totaly tactile and if he got upset his body tempreture had problems regulating itself and he could have fits,basicly it was one adult taken out till he was sedated at 7pm,he had to be sedated his his feed was pumped into him over 10 hours very graduly.we donated samples to aldrley hay after his death they would be used for genetic study.

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22 minutes ago, Virgil Caine said:

The issue is that there are large numbers of people in beds who are too ill to go home but are not so sick that they require acute care. Discharge them too soon and they may well reappear out of the back of an ambulance in A&E where the whole costly reappraisal process starts again. The hospital therefore keeps them on the ward until they are fit to discharge blocking an acute bed. Back in the 1970s most health authorities had geriatric or convalescent facilities where such people could be sent but they were nearly all axed when ' Care In The Community' was all the rage. The problem is that the latter which now usually involves one or two 20 minute visits from a carer is completely inadequate to meet the needs of patients and the GPs who are technically responsible for the health needs of patients can't be arsed to visit them . There needs to be a return to some sort of intermediate convalescent care staffed by nursing auxiliaries with a few fully trained nurses and doctors to supplement them. This NHS crisis is really about the current state of aftercare .

Agreed. This is at the heart of the problem. People unable to go home because they have no one to look after them due to axing of convalescent facilities. 

Not so long ago there would be a family member free, usually a female, to look after a relative/close friend at home which helped a lot.

IMO the problem is only going to get worse with the increase to accessing a state pension!

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21 minutes ago, Economic Exile said:

Agreed. This is at the heart of the problem. People unable to go home because they have no one to look after them due to axing of convalescent facilities. 

Not so long ago there would be a family member free, usually a female, to look after a relative/close friend at home which helped a lot.

IMO the problem is only going to get worse with the increase to accessing a state pension!

house prices are part of the problem,its all hands to the pumps to pay the rent/morgage.gone are the days of one wage earner freeing up a partner to help relitives in need.

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5 hours ago, satch said:

Am I the only one who think this is a bit of 'poor me' I am so over worked and we will show this right wing nasty government why we need more money, as more money solves every problem. No one is allowed to critise the saints that are the NHS, if you do you must be a racist, nazi, brexit supporter who likes seeing old people and babies die a 'orrible death.

Sure they might be a bit busy because of the winter and flu but most jobs have busy and lean times throughout the year.

They moan so much about how fucking 'ard it all is that nobody wants to train to do the job. It's the same with the lazy teachers. Today they might actually have a point, but it's all of their own making! :wanker:

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3 minutes ago, stokiescum said:

house prices are part of the problem,its all hands to the pumps to pay the rent/morgage.gone are the days of one wage earner freeing up a partner to help relitives in need.

Agreed. House prices/rents in comparison to wages require two people working and unable to help their own and wider family in times of need.

Politicians just don’t seem to get it!

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23 minutes ago, Economic Exile said:

Agreed. House prices/rents in comparison to wages require two people working and unable to help their own and wider family in times of need.

Politicians just don’t seem to get it!

sexual equality is a 2 edged sword,now women are working and paying someone else to bring there kids up at nursery from 730-530.its madness.

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23 minutes ago, Economic Exile said:

Agreed. This is at the heart of the problem. People unable to go home because they have no one to look after them due to axing of convalescent facilities. 

Not so long ago there would be a family member free, usually a female, to look after a relative/close friend at home which helped a lot.

IMO the problem is only going to get worse with the increase to accessing a state pension!

When my mother was in hospital after a heart scare last year they wouldn't let her out! She was in for eight days, or something. Until the bed was required and then it was all hands to the pump to get her discharged. 

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