Change of use [property] process

[MrXxxx]

Hi DBs,

been doing a bit of reading recently on this process, especially the 2021 changes that made it possible to change the 'old' commercial [A/B ratings]; properties that are now designated as E class, to Residential [C3 class] under Permitted rights i.e. no need to have planning permission.

My specific question though is on changing the 'new' F1/F2 classes [learning and non-residential/Community use] to Residential [C3], and specifically decommissioned and unlisted churches....are there any Dosbodders that have recent experience of this and would like to comment on the process i.e.

1. how difficult,

2. ability to succeed,

3. how to succeed [tips],

and MOST IMPORTANTLY if you would buy such a property without PP in the hope of getting it at a later date; so making a substantial saving on the initial purchase/auction price?

[Andersen]

Possibly relevant - my last project came with planning permission to knock down the existing building and rebuild with an extra floor. After looking at things I decided to renovate the existing place rather than make use of the planning permission. Food for thought? 

Look around the property forums? England or Scotland? Somewhere that often has hands-on experience https://www.propertytribes.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=35&action=latest_posts

It's an adventure, good luck and keep us updated.

[spunko]

Not what you asked but have you looked into the pitfalls of buying an ecclestiastical building ie actually living in one? There are quite a few, such as (if there are graves) not being allowed to dig the garden, how cold they are in winter, how you cannot see out of the windows as they are very high up, etc....

[Andersen]

I've looked at a few, also been given tours around others that have been converted ... random thoughts: Some magnificent buildings get offered for a pittance but with a clause "it must be restored", one being sold by the council was classic gothic style - ih had a leaking roof the council had ignored for many years, when it went for sale the new buyer had to commit to fixing the now rotted roof...

Methodist builds are very "square" construction, not so pretty but easy to put a 1st floor in covering 75% of the floorspace and have an open plan lounge in the open end - but beware heating costs.

A local place built a lean-to extension on the side of their c17th chapel using stones from the grounds - council then slapped a preservation order on the building due to it's "centuries old historical significance" - including the recently lean-to that had been built with no PP. Another got listed / preservation status which says the rusty corrugated tin roof must be retained. One had a preservation order on the metal railings around the perimeter - by default that means the whole building is covered by the order ! Can'o'worms. DYOR - or do sympathetic renovations and fly under the radar.

For traditional builds, remember a lot of churches ran "Save our church roof" campaigns for many years, they can be money pits. I looked at one that had a nice rose window behind the altar but it needed work - the "cheap" fix was to repair the crumbling stonework with resin, that was many years ago and the cost then to fix one window was £85k.

One church I looked at had permission to park car(s) on the gravel outside the church but the only access was a narrow footpath with gate - the sale included permission to open the gate up and fit driveway gates - without that access would have been impossible.

Graves are a subject on their own. Who is responsible for maintenance? Local churches everywhere have toppled headstones to avoid them falling onto kids / drunks ( and the compo claims). How do you feel about strangers walking past your lounge window on their way to pay respects to grandad? 

[MrXxxx]

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

Methodist builds are very "square" construction, not so pretty but easy to put a 1st floor in covering 75% of the floorspace and have an open plan lounge in the open end - but beware heating costs.

Yes I was thinking of going the Methodist/Chapel route for this very reason, and also as they are much smaller; I dont need more than a 2bed and so there are about the right size rather than some of the behemoths churches are. You say about heating, but surely the smaller chapels would be the equivalent of a slightly older building with a high ceiling wouldn't they, and could you not put insulation withing the ceiling and tiled surface?

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

A local place built a lean-to extension on the side of their c17th chapel using stones from the grounds - council then slapped a preservation order on the building due to it's "centuries old historical significance" - including the recently lean-to that had been built with no PP.

Had to smile at this, as normally in such cases where things are built with PP they [council] would be 'demanding' that it be torn down!

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

One had a preservation order on the metal railings around the perimeter - by default that means the whole building is covered by the order !

Interesting, I hadn't though that something such as railings could then make the 'whole' protected status....I think if I buy such a project I will aim for something built from early 1900 onwards/unlisted, as I would rather not have all those hassles/additional expense of a Listed structure...hence once again why chapels are a better option than churches.

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

that was many years ago and the cost then to fix one window was £85k.

I have worked in Stained Glass so could do the windows myself. Likewise I can turn my had to Architectural masonry and Joinery.

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

One church I looked at had permission to park car(s) on the gravel outside the church but the only access was a narrow footpath with gate - the sale included permission to open the gate up and fit driveway gates - without that access would have been impossible.

I would have thought that churches/chapels are less likely to suffer from 'Ransom strip' issues though....my only concern would be with specific caveats imposed by the seller [church diocese] when they sell the property, where could I find this information apart from applying for the deeds,  are there church diocese sites that list all the paperwork for their [deconsecrated] buildings?

9 hours ago, Andersen said:

Graves are a subject on their own. Who is responsible for maintenance? Local churches everywhere have toppled headstones to avoid them falling onto kids / drunks ( and the compo claims). How do you feel about strangers walking past your lounge window on their way to pay respects to grandad? 

Chapels are less likely to have burial grounds attached, and so this avoids the issue of internment and moving graves. I plan to be selective in what I consider to avoid the 'easy headaches' that could occur [see above].

Thanks for your contribution so far, what are your thoughts about buying without planning permission and/or the planning permission process...and anybody else that would like to contribute.

[nirvana]

31 minutes ago, MrXxxx said:

and anybody else that would like to contribute.

become a farmer and live in yer caravan 

edit: how about 'micro farming'? so you just need a small amount of land....

put a polytunnel on it and you specialize in growing cress and other poncy stuff for posh restaurants 

Edited September 1 by nirvana

[apples]

14 hours ago, MrXxxx said:

specifically decommissioned and unlisted churches

Don't know how relevant this is, but it was in today's Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13795919/Vicar-council-Buckinghamshire-churches.html

Home with a pew! Vicar at war with council after trying to turn TWO Buckinghamshire village churches into homes because 'he's got no parishioners left'

Edited September 1 by apples

[MrXxxx]

1 hour ago, nirvana said:

become a farmer and live in yer caravan 

edit: how about 'micro farming'? so you just need a small amount of land....

put a polytunnel on it and you specialize in growing cress and other poncy stuff for posh restaurants 

'We' joke, but this is what I would like to do; perhaps it was watching 'The Good Life' when I was growing up, and the impact Felicity Kendal had on me?...definitely more of a Tom than a Jerry. and definitely not a Margo!

Don't fancy the caravan, but would like a small plot [say 1-2 acre], enough for a couple of fruit trees, ~5 hives, some chickens, and a poly tunnel or two growing veg via a Hydroponic system with Rainbow trout. Run it as a small business to provide a) my own food, b) some 'pin' money selling the surplus, and c) out of interest...I suppose the dream that a lot of others have. The issue is from previous experience I have found 'dreams' only ever stay that way unless you take active actions to enact them, and I have been passively waiting for things/circumstances to happen. They haven't for the last couple of years so I have decided I need to start on a Plan B i.e. do the former, active actions....far too easy to waste valuable time sitting comfortably 'wishing'!

[MrXxxx]

10 hours ago, apples said:

Don't know how relevant this is, but it was in today's Mail:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13795919/Vicar-council-Buckinghamshire-churches.html

Home with a pew! Vicar at war with council after trying to turn TWO Buckinghamshire village churches into homes because 'he's got no parishioners left'

Looks to me like the vicar thought it was a forgone conclusion, didn't put much effort into his application, as a result this 'put up the back' of the local council planning office/officer who then decided to 'play it by the book'...and we are not talking about the holy one! :-)