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Chewing Grass

Populist - every government is unless you live in a dictatorship.

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2 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

I hate the term populist, as who the hell votes for the unpopular in a democracy.

The media can fuck-off with their over use of the term.

👍 out of reps. 

I think they are trying to say parties for the stupid who clearly have no idea who they are voting for 

as you say, they can fuck off

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It is very strange taking about "the rise" of "populist" parties when referring to democratic elections.

O.o

I think they mean that they're popular with the plebs, but you wouldn't invite them to a fancy dinner party.

xD

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3 minutes ago, One percent said:

👍 out of reps. 

I think they are trying to say parties for the stupid who clearly have no idea who they are voting for 

as you say, they can fuck off

That's exactly what they're trying to infer.

People who say stuff that's popular to get elected, but with ulterior (usually "far right") motives.

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Just now, SpectrumFX said:

It is very strange taking about "the rise" of "populist" parties when referring to democratic elections.

O.o

I think they mean that they're popular with the plebs, but you wouldn't invite them to a fancy dinner party.

xD

Populist is intended to convey the idea that proposed solutions are simplistic and ultimately ineffective for complex societal issues. Unlike, for example, offering free money to students/pensioners to secure votes. 

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Just now, Hail the Tripod said:

Populist is intended to convey the idea that proposed solutions are simplistic and ultimately ineffective for complex societal issues. Unlike, for example, offering free money to students/pensioners to secure votes. 

And for everyone in the world who hasn’t actually contributed to they system 

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Well, it is a bit complicated.

Most democracies in the world have unpopular politicians, voted in either to ensure that the other guy doesn't get in, or because there's no-one better.  I'm reminded of Douglas Adams's lizard politicians*.

Quote

“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

Anyway, I think there is reason to be very wary of populist governments -- the last populist government in the UK was voted in the general election in 1997 (and repeated in 2001).  And we all know where that got us.

*New HHGTTG coming on Thursday R4.  It'll probably be rubbish, but it is meant to be based on DA's 'ideas not taken up', so there is a chance it'll be good/bearable.

Edited by dgul

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39 minutes ago, dgul said:

*New HHGTTG coming on Thursday R4.  It'll probably be rubbish, but it is meant to be based on DA's 'ideas not taken up', so there is a chance it'll be good/bearable.


Some laughing at Trump will be mandatory.
 

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4 minutes ago, dgul said:

Sadly, I fear that it'll be full of that sort of thing.

It might be ok, the current TV adaptation of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency had none of that bullshit in it. 

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6 minutes ago, This Time said:

It might be ok, the current TV adaptation of Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency had none of that bullshit in it. 

Well, while it is excellent, unlike the Mangan version it has nothing whatsoever to do with the work of Douglas Adams other than the name of the lead character.

But it is rather good anyway.  Perhaps 'nothing to do with the So-Called BBC' was a factor?

Hence I worry about the new HHGTTG.

 

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In ancient Rome there were two political groups the Optimates and Populares

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Optimates-and-Populares

Basically the former represented the aristocratic elite (literally the Best Men) while the latter claimed at least ostensibly to speak for the people as a whole.

Therefore those in the media and elsewhere who deride populists must by definition be promoting rule by an oligarchic elite. Nice to know where they stand on the issue.

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1 minute ago, Virgil Caine said:

In ancient Rome there were two political groups the Optimates and Populares

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Optimates-and-Populares

Basically the former represented the aristocratic elite (literally the Best Men) while the latter claimed at least ostensibly to speak for the people as a whole.

Therefore those in the media and elsewhere who deride populists must by definition be promoting rule by an oligarchic elite. Nice to know where they stand on the issue.

The tyrannical despots of the republic Marius, Julius Caesar and ultimately Octavius Caesar were all Populares. On that basis you could easily argue that actual populism leads to murderous tyranny (as is easily observable in Venezuela currently).

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18 minutes ago, Hail the Tripod said:

The tyrannical despots of the republic Marius, Julius Caesar and ultimately Octavius Caesar were all Populares. On that basis you could easily argue that actual populism leads to murderous tyranny (as is easily observable in Venezuela currently).

Indeed, that is why I used the term 'ostensibly' since some Populares politicians including Caesar were from patrician families 

It is worth pointing that the Optimate opponents of the Populares were quite as murderous as any study of the career of Sulla would reveal particularly during the Social War and its aftermath

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

Anyway the fall of the Roman Republic was really down to the Senatorial class fighting over the spoils of Empire rather than a result of runaway populism and it was the armies that the likes of Marius, Sulla, Pompey and Caesar controlled that were decisive in that process not the votes they won at the polls.

The point still remains that in its origins the division was between those who believed in a narrow oligarchy who decided what was good for their inferiors and those who spoke for the Plebs. The opposite of Populist is someone's who believes in rule by narrow groups of  oligarchs or classes of philosopher kings who decide what is good for everyone else.

The arguments against Democracy were trotted out ad nauseam by Thucydides in his History of the Peloponnesian war but the Athenians still clung to that system of government even after they had lost that conflict so clearly they thought the risk of demagoguery was worth taking.

Edited by Virgil Caine

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That's another word.. Simplistic. Exactly how does it differ from Simple?

A simple solution,

A simplistic solution.

Complicatist is better, except when simple actually works.

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My favourite food to order in a restaurant is a cheeseburger and chips. IMHO nothing can match the overwhelming flavour of a good burger. 

If the So-Called BBC came to the restaurant with me it would be ordering me a dog turd burger with some tramp vomit on the side. 

I just wish the So-Called BBC (and other media) would drop the whole "we know what's best for you ignoramuses" attitude. 

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2 hours ago, Virgil Caine said:

It is worth pointing that the Optimate opponents of the Populares were quite as murderous as any study of the career of Sulla would reveal particularly during the Social War and its aftermath

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

In point of fact Sulla marched on Rome in response to the Marian coup. Sulla returned powers to the Senate and retired after his (constitutionally limited) second consecutive Consulship. He was certainly ruthless in dealing with political opponents, but he was clearly acting with the interests of the Republic in mind rather than personal dynastic ambition.

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Populism is the policies cynically on offer by the other parties to gain votes which are the same honest and right policies that our party offers to gain votes.  If not they soon will be.

Then as it's really just populism if our party wins we can renege on them - as the policies are just populism.  The other parties would have reneged on them for the same reason.

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1 minute ago, Bkkandrew said:

I have updated my approach on the Graun's comments to add to wild anti-Trump stuff to include dark comments about how we "must step up the fight against populists". 

The fools are lapping it up!

You need to be careful with that stuff. You might accidently start a political movement that brings about the end of the world.

xD

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3 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

You need to be careful with that stuff. You might accidently start a political movement that brings about the end of the world.

xD

I thought that was Spunko and the name of the organisation was DOSBODS?

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I agree with what others have written above but I also find it very sinister. There are clearly powerful forces and big money behind this. Not something that your average journo or SJW will have come up with.

It seems to me to be trying to create a narrative whereby the thoughts or views of the many is wrong, to be derided. Perhaps crushed.

It is anti-democracy, It is anti-free speech as it clearly seeks to ridicule and silence people by derided cries of "Populist!". Not very bright luvies have fallen for this.

In the UK re BREXIT, in the US re Trump and now in Italy the idea that the views of the majority must be ridiculed, scorned and over-turned is nightmare stuff. I have never known anything like this in my lifetime. It is the stuff of the Nazis and the Marxists. We fought a World War and a Cold War to defeat and defend against such things.

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20 hours ago, SpectrumFX said:

That's exactly what they're trying to infer.

People who say stuff that's popular to get elected, but with ulterior (usually "far right") motives.

Welcome to 2018 when labels are the name of the game 

Me thinks they have worn out all the labels as it`s becoming clear no one gives a fuck no more 

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