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Virgil Caine

Strength Through Joy

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Nazi health and lifestyle advice

Smoking was only one of the health related behaviours that received attention in Nazi Germany. The consumption of alcohol was also strongly campaigned against. Fruit and vegetable consumption was encouraged, as was the use of wholemeal bread and the avoidance of fat.1

http://www.bmj.com/content/329/7480/1424

“Nazi Germany was governed by a health-conscious political elite bent on European conquest and genocidal extermination,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/the-nazis-forgotten-anti-smoking-campaign/373766/

The resemblance to modern government initiatives is purely coincidental

Edited by Virgil Caine

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11 minutes ago, dgul said:

The Nazis are a very interesting 'thing' in today's society.  You absolutely can't say 'but' when mentioning the Nazis -- they're considered to be absolutely bad, an embodiment of evil

You can't say 'They did horrific crimes, but they did know now to motivate their youth' or 'their foreign policy was twisted, but at least they pushed healthy living'.

They're this kind of bogeyman that must never be discussed.

I think this is very short sighted -- as I've mentioned before, the 'lesson from history' isn't that the Nazis were evil (which they were), but that they were well liked and had immense popular support -- even after the de-facto dictatorship that came along in 1933.

If a fascist dictatorship is a bad thing (which it is), then you have to look at all the aspects of what brought it about, not consider it to be just evil leaders that take control in an unwanted coupd'etat.  So, you might like to look into the way the media is controlled, say.   Or how there is a constant message of 'what is right' spewed forth.

What I find scary is that there are states with Fascist/Nazi style approaches these days.  Actually, many states, some worse than others.  But, because we can't invoke the Nazis we're dooming ourselves to repeat lessons -- because the Nazis were absolutely bad, and comparing country x or policy y to them is akin to Antisemitism, or Holocaust denial or whatever.

[BTW, 'country x' isn't the USA or Russia -- their motives are quite clear, whether right or wrong.  It is the ones that sell their 'moderate and legitimate polices' with a smile that you've got to worry about]

Oh, and there are plenty of worries about the other side of the coin as well, the rise of the socialist mindset.

Looks like we're dooming ourselves to repeat the mistakes of the past.

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who cloak themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged.Waiting for the right climate in which to flourish, spreading fear in the name of righteousness"-Jean-Luke Piccard

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There's a history and meaning of the word in the telegraph link below.  That is if you can believe such stuff and assume it's not just yet another rewriting of history.

Quote

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8843158/Why-Hitler-hated-being-called-a-Nazi-and-whats-really-in-humble-pie-origins-of-words-and-phrases-revealed.html

Nazi – an insult in use long before the rise of Adolf Hitler's party. It was a derogatory term for a backwards peasant – being a shortened version of Ignatius, a common name in Bavaria, the area from which the Nazis emerged. Opponents seized on this and shortened the party's title Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, to the dismissive "Nazi"

 

I think they ratcheted up the insult level during and after WW2 and rightly so but maybe they were being a bit unfair on backwards peasants.

Edited by twocents

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42 minutes ago, Snow bird said:

I'll give an example from today.

The Nazi pug.

The guy is an idiot.  What he said was insulting and offensive to many people, including, I'm sure, Jews.  But the right response would have been to ridicule the guy, ignore him, whatever.

However, the response of the state was completely different.  it was to humiliate the guy and leave him with 'punishment marks' (he'll have a criminal record which will have all sorts of repercussions).  And this because he spoke away from the 'right way'.  IMO this is exceptionally dangerous.

[and this is a trivial example -- the opposite would be the child abuse scandals around the UK -- where people were humiliated into silence while these heinous crimes were being committed -- again, because they spoke away from the 'right way'.]

[And the UK is quite well behaved -- there are much worse examples out there.]

[I believe we'll see a 'new Nazi' before my time here ends.  And it will be both unpleasant and 'unexpected'.  If only we knew to look for the signs.]

[And, again, it won't be the USA or Russia, or, probably, China.  It will be a country that is currently tolerated, if not respected -- just as Germany was respected by many around the world in the 1930s] 

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1 hour ago, dgul said:

I'll give an example from today.

The Nazi pug.

The guy is an idiot.  What he said was insulting and offensive to many people, including, I'm sure, Jews.  But the right response would have been to ridicule the guy, ignore him, whatever.

I’m not sure who could really be offended apart from Jews?  Why would anyone in our current generation be offended by someone doing comedy impressions of a dictator from two generations ago?  Even at the time people were doing heil Hitler jokes.  It seems more taboo now than it ever was during / since WW2.

I guess the fact it was specifically doing it at references to “gas the juice” or whatever it was might upset someone who lost a grandad..  but it’s getting on for 70 years ago now,  it doesn’t seem fair to hold youngsters to quite such high levels of sensitivity.  

A dog doing Hitler impressions IS quite funny!  Where do you draw the line? Should the guy who posted the viral picture of the cat that looked like Hitler be locked up too?   People need to stop taking the whole subject of “Nazis” so seriously..  they were just one particular flavour of fascist/authoritarian regime who happened to be given that name.  You don’t avoid history repeating by banning “Nazis” and jokes about Nazis.  You avoid history repeating by watching all authoritarian groups..  the left have far more form for this than the right,  and even Hitler dressed up the Nazi party with socialist/left leaning policies.  There’s more chance of ANTIFA being the root of the next authoritarian dictatorship than anyone in this present day and age making jokes about Nazis. The world seems to have gone bonkers O.o 

/rant

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Two fold effect, expression / test of control - if you can impose outright obeyance and suppression of vices (hardest to crack in many ways) then you can get your controlled population to do almost anything. Secondly the target is peak performance health  / reproduction / use of resources ready for war.

Reminds of something, can't think of it right now.

 

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5 hours ago, dgul said:

I'll give an example from today.

The Nazi pug.

The guy is an idiot.  What he said was insulting and offensive to many people, including, I'm sure, Jews.  But the right response would have been to ridicule the guy, ignore him, whatever.

However, the response of the state was completely different.  it was to humiliate the guy and leave him with 'punishment marks' (he'll have a criminal record which will have all sorts of repercussions).  And this because he spoke away from the 'right way'.  IMO this is exceptionally dangerous.

[and this is a trivial example -- the opposite would be the child abuse scandals around the UK -- where people were humiliated into silence while these heinous crimes were being committed -- again, because they spoke away from the 'right way'.]

[And the UK is quite well behaved -- there are much worse examples out there.]

[I believe we'll see a 'new Nazi' before my time here ends.  And it will be both unpleasant and 'unexpected'.  If only we knew to look for the signs.]

[And, again, it won't be the USA or Russia, or, probably, China.  It will be a country that is currently tolerated, if not respected -- just as Germany was respected by many around the world in the 1930s] 

I'd be amazed if any Jews were offended. The blanket statement that they would be,  put forth by the media, I'd find more offensive if I were Jewish! 

As for the OP I thought you were going to say it sounds like they had the right idea...!

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7 hours ago, Virgil Caine said:

Nazi health and lifestyle advice

Smoking was only one of the health related behaviours that received attention in Nazi Germany. The consumption of alcohol was also strongly campaigned against. Fruit and vegetable consumption was encouraged, as was the use of wholemeal bread and the avoidance of fat.1

http://www.bmj.com/content/329/7480/1424

“Nazi Germany was governed by a health-conscious political elite bent on European conquest and genocidal extermination,”

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/07/the-nazis-forgotten-anti-smoking-campaign/373766/

The resemblance to modern government initiatives is purely coincidental

If you look too closely, you’ll see they were largely in tune with the “loony left” mindset. Swap out Jewish privilege for white privileged and you’re bang on message for modern lefties. Awkward! Best to just fixate on an imaginary version of them as the evil “other”.

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35 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

 

As for the OP I thought you were going to say it sounds like they had the right idea...!

No I am just pointing out that these 'were doing it for your own and the common good initiatives'  so prevalent in our society are not a million miles from some Nazi  Germany. Moreover, I suspect the rationale is similar in that it gives the state control of every aspect of people's lives. The point of all the initiatives is to ensure everyone conforms to the political elite. Similar things existed in Stalins USSR. 

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3 hours ago, Libspero said:

 There’s more chance of ANTIFA being the root of the next authoritarian dictatorship than anyone in this present day and age making jokes about Nazis. The world seems to have gone bonkers O.o 

 

 

7 hours ago, dgul said:

Oh, and there are plenty of worries about the other side of the coin as well, the rise of the socialist mindset.

Looks like we're dooming ourselves to repeat the mistakes of the past.

While WW2 had a foot in both camps, the 20th century was a time when classic war*, i.e. a means to gain control and possession of land and resources was replaced by ideological wars. On the whole those ideological wars have been internal, i.e. U.S.S.R and China,  more broadly Korea and Vietnam. 

If you want to tot up figures then from an ideological point of view the left has way more blood on it's hands than the right ever has. Had the Nazis kept it internal and not gone for land grabs in Europe the rest of the world would have turned a blind eye to the internal genocide, just as they have with the aforementioned U.S.S.R and China.

I think many people would take exception to the point made by @dgul, yet Dianne Abbot can go on TV and say Chairman Mao on balance did more good than bad, while ignoring the fact he killed a similar number of people to the Nazis.

If it's erosion of rights, draconian measures and incarceration with out charge it's those on the left (all be it hard left) that have been the flag bearers for close to a century. 

* ignoring various large portions of history such as the crusades of course.

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I didn't watch the dog video but I suspect that there are more horrific things that Jewish people in our country are worried about right now - I.e. islamists in the UK who hold marches or who post on social media about Jews and Israel.

The dog is not going to murder them or want their extinction.

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1 hour ago, Virgil Caine said:

No I am just pointing out that these 'were doing it for your own and the common good initiatives'  so prevalent in our society are not a million miles from some Nazi  Germany. Moreover, I suspect the rationale is similar in that it gives the state control of every aspect of people's lives. The point of all the initiatives is to ensure everyone conforms to the political elite. Similar things existed in Stalins USSR. 

Oh I see. In the early days of Nazism it wasn't about that, in fact a lot of it was about self control and asceticism and shunning manifestations of large industry and capitalism and going "back to the land".

It's a contradiction that historians say we should learn from history if we don't want to repeat it but then in the same breath they demonstrate that they are not interested in the actual idiosyncrasies of Nazism. Try researching this online and all you'll find is endless commentary on Himmler's "obsession with the occult" or something. Your examples about wholegrains and fruit/veg we know now are completely true. Not many people know that animal rights were big in Nazi Germany either. Quite forward-thinking really, and taking the last 60 years into account since Nazism fell, when we've seen the explosion of factory-farming, globalisation and all the rest of it, I think we would have benefited quite a lot in hindsight by adopting many of their policies on health, farming etc.

PS: An interesting fact for any screeching leftists you may encounter, fox hunting is banned in the UK because Goering banned hunting with dogs in the 1930s, which was adopted into EU law. :Old: Whether that's about simply controlling the population I don't know, but I think it's a good thing.

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22 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Oh I see. In the early days of Nazism it wasn't about that, in fact a lot of it was about self control and asceticism and shunning manifestations of large industry and capitalism and going "back to the land".

It's a contradiction that historians say we should learn from history if we don't want to repeat it but then in the same breath they demonstrate that they are not interested in the actual idiosyncrasies of Nazism. Try researching this online and all you'll find is endless commentary on Himmler's "obsession with the occult" or something. Your examples about wholegrains and fruit/veg we know now are completely true. Not many people know that animal rights were big in Nazi Germany either. Quite forward-thinking really, and taking the last 60 years into account since Nazism fell, when we've seen the explosion of factory-farming, globalisation and all the rest of it, I think we would have benefited quite a lot in hindsight by adopting many of their policies on health, farming etc.

PS: An interesting fact for any screeching leftists you may encounter, fox hunting is banned in the UK because Goering banned hunting with dogs in the 1930s, which was adopted into EU law. :Old: Whether that's about simply controlling the population I don't know, but I think it's a good thing.

This is like the discussion trying to be had elsewhere about paedophilia; these are proscribed hate topics and no nuanced discussion will be permitted!

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The Nazis borrowed so much money to build their roads, improve their housing, to create jobs that it became inevitable that they would need to go to war as war was the only way to avoid economic collapse. That the plan was always to go to war in order to provide 'living space' by wiping out the people to the East of them raises an interesting chicken & egg scenario.

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2 hours ago, The Masked Tulip said:

The Nazis borrowed so much money to build their roads, improve their housing, to create jobs that it became inevitable that they would need to go to war as war was the only way to avoid economic collapse. That the plan was always to go to war in order to provide 'living space' by wiping out the people to the East of them raises an interesting chicken & egg scenario.

Hitler was an unusual creature as a politician in that he largely stuck to the manifesto promises set out in Mein Kampf.

With regard to his health and welfare policies they were in the Prussian militarist tradition where the armed forces were the guiding principle for organising society so he did not invent a lot of it.

What I find strange in modern society is that many of those who rail against fascism, and particularly the young, actually want a society  organised on lines not a million miles from the totalitarian states of the mid 20th century. Their world view is completely different from the anarchistic and libertarian ideas of the counter culture of the 1960s.

Edited by Virgil Caine

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15 hours ago, Snow bird said:

 “The greatest evil is not done now…in those sordid ‘dens of crime’ that Dickens loved to paint. It is…not even done in concentration camps and labor camps. In those we see its final result, but it is conceived and ordered; moved, seconded, carried and minuted in clear, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice.” (CS Lewis, famously quoted by Ronald Reagan in his 'Evil Empire' speech). 

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8 minutes ago, The Masked Tulip said:

 

Thank you for that.  It is a long time since I saw it last.  It is amazing that writers of a science fictional series can be so insightful.  It is also sad that Picard leaves us with the warning that these enemies of decency will always be with us.  Statistically I suppose that eventually they will win.  We need to win battle after battle to keep a free and prosperous society going but they only have to win once to bring it all crashing down with millennia needed to build it up again.  It is truly surprising that we made it this far.  We really need to be far more ruthless dealing with evil.  It is our weakness that we feel kindness to those who would destroy us.  Frogs and scorpions.  When will we ever learn? 

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4 minutes ago, Snow bird said:

Thank you for that.  It is a long time since I saw it last.  It is amazing that writers of a science fictional series can be so insightful.  It is also sad that Picard leaves us with the warning that these enemies of decency will always be with us.  Statistically I suppose that eventually they will win.  We need to win battle after battle to keep a free and prosperous society going but they only have to win once to bring it all crashing down with millennia needed to build it up again.  It is truly surprising that we made it this far.  We really need to be far more ruthless dealing with evil.  It is our weakness that we feel kindness to those who would destroy us.  Frogs and scorpions.  When will we ever learn? 

 

Modern democracy and liberty is a relatively new thing - it could all disappear fairly easily. It is no mistake that the countries and peoples now being described as fascists are those countries which have done the most for free speech, equality, etc. The millenials are dangerous morons.

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13 hours ago, Libspero said:

   the left have far more form for this than the right,  and even Hitler dressed up the Nazi party with socialist/left leaning policies.  There’s more chance of ANTIFA being the root of the next authoritarian dictatorship than anyone in this present day and age making jokes about Nazis. The world seems to have gone bonkers O.o 

/rant

and the irony is that the Nazi party was socialist, not only is there a clue in the name but also the fact that government controlled the means of production. How Nazi became a perjorative term for right wing political views is irrational.

http://historyhalf.com/hitler-in-context/

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