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Frank Hovis

Double Sleeping

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I've found myself doing this fairly frequently the last few months so it's good to see an article on it.  I'll go to bed tired at about ten to half past and then wake anywehere between three and four, wide awake, make a cup of tea, read a book or DOSBODS, and then after an hour or so turn the light out and easily go back to sleep for a couple of hours.

I had heard about it before as probably being the standard sleep pattern for millenia prior to the rise of industrialisation and cheap lighting.

There is also some evidence as to why it may be beneficial:
 

Quote

 

Other recent research has suggested that this form of biphasic sleeping (sleeping in two chunks) may be more natural and each of the two sleeps has an important and distinct function, aiding the body’s repair processes, helping sort memories and also emotionally process the events of the day.

Buoyed by these discoveries, I decided that rather than fight my ‘old-fashioned’ sleeping patterns, I’d work with them. So these days I accept that I will probably wake at about 3am and plan accordingly. If I have a 7am start, then I aim to be in bed by 10.30pm. This gives me roughly a four-and-a-half-hour ‘first sleep’. When I do wake around 3am, rather than lie there fretting, I get up, quietly, and have a glass of milk (containing tryptophan, a sleep-inducing amino acid), listen to music, meditate or read a really boring book. I have a special collection of books I keep for this purpose. When I start to feel sleepy, which is normally after 40 minutes or so, I go back to bed for three or so hours of ‘second’ sleep.

 

 

Up to recently if I woke up in the night I would just lie there and would eventually go back to sleep but this seems to work better; not that I would deliberately try to wake up at three or four as I would rather just sleep through.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5540229/Why-sleeping-like-Victorian-help-cure-insomnia.html

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8 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

I've found myself doing this fairly frequently the last few months so it's good to see an article on it.  I'll go to bed tired at about ten to half past and then wake anywehere between three and four, wide awake, make a cup of tea, read a book or DOSBODS, and then after an hour or so turn the light out and easily go back to sleep for a couple of hours.

Happened to me quite a few times last year. More so when alcohol is involved - not too many pints either. Process is after some booze go home, go to bed, fall straight to sleep, wake up at 3.30-4am, ruminating thoughts and cannot get to sleep until after 5am. >:( OK if it happpens on a weekend, pisser if it's a work day.

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I often wake up at 5-6, and find if I motivate myself and get out of bed (difficult when its winter and the house is cold) I feel better throughout the day. Hitting snooze and clock watching until 7:30 leaves me feeling lethargic. Yet I still do it to myself.

Double sleeping I expect is much easier if you're alone and can read in bed where its nice and warm rather than having to get up and get cold :)

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11 minutes ago, Uptherebels said:

I just do the first part. Same bedtime, but just get up at four and get ready for work xD

Oh and I'll also wake several times between 11 and four too. 

Basically, I'm screwed :(

Me too. Often I would find that 4 hours plus 1 extra 2nd hour would do me, but I often don't manage that 2nd sleep. 6 hours is great for me, 7 an absolute dream

Edited by BBH

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1 minute ago, Cosmic Apple said:

I often wake up at 5-6, and find if I motivate myself and get out of bed (difficult when its winter and the house is cold) I feel better throughout the day. Hitting snooze and clock watching until 7:30 leaves me feeling lethargic. Yet I still do it to myself.

Double sleeping I expect is much easier if you're alone and can read in bed where its nice and warm rather than having to get up and get cold :)

Yes, there is that.  When it's not just me I don't get up and put the kettle and light on, instead I just lie still.

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I fucked up my sleep pattern in my ealy 20s.

Id get up at up 7, uni, the nap for 3h at 3pm.

In holidays it shufted to having 2 or 3 naps. The quality of my long night sleep was shit - could not get to sleep.

Took me 18 months to fix.

Unless ive had a v late, drunk night, i get up at 6, go to bed at 10 or 11.

You cannot replace deep long sleeps with naps.

I snooze on trains but thats more about refreshing my eyes after a day at work.

15 minutes ago, UmBongo said:

Happened to me quite a few times last year. More so when alcohol is involved - not too many pints either. Process is after some booze go home, go to bed, fall straight to sleep, wake up at 3.30-4am, ruminating thoughts and cannot get to sleep until after 5am. >:( OK if it happpens on a weekend, pisser if it's a work day.

As i get older, ive found drinking drunk gives a shit night sleep.

My struggle us my jib means im not physically knackered but my brain is toast. Makes it hard to sleep, as brain starts buzzing.

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There was an article in nature a couple of weeks back which mentioned, in passing, that the natural pattern is 4 hours of sleep, an hour of wakefulness, and then another four hours of sleep. That caught my attention because I'd be surprised if many working people managed to put in 9 hours in bed (plus whatever time it takes to get to sleep).

The article itself was on the spectrum of artificial light. I've been using "f.lux" for a while in the winter, and it seems to make a bit of difference to how quickly I get to sleep. I think there was a thread on those kind of screen-reddening programmes a little while ago?

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16 minutes ago, BurntBread said:

There was an article in nature a couple of weeks back which mentioned, in passing, that the natural pattern is 4 hours of sleep, an hour of wakefulness, and then another four hours of sleep. That caught my attention because I'd be surprised if many working people managed to put in 9 hours in bed (plus whatever time it takes to get to sleep).

The article itself was on the spectrum of artificial light. I've been using "f.lux" for a while in the winter, and it seems to make a bit of difference to how quickly I get to sleep. I think there was a thread on those kind of screen-reddening programmes a little while ago?

The interesting thing lacking in that paper is the seasonal effect on sleep length.

If you suppose that we're a diurnal animal (rather than nocturnal), then sleep is largely regulated by daylight, yet in our ecological environment the hours of daylight depend on the season.  Yet the assumption is a 'constant' 4+1+4.

I've been pushing an ecological season approach (for research) recently -- sleep patterns should match the season (ie, more time set aside for sleep in winter).  There's also the thermal side -- we really try to have a isothermal existence -- central heating in winter, air-con in summer.  What we should be doing is the equivalent of the author in the above piece's daylight exposure -- spend at least an hour each day (arguably, a day each week) in the environmental thermal condition.  There is some evidence that this seasonal approach helps regulate hormonal changes -- albeit we're not sure quite what the full effects might be.

[I suppose the hypothesis might be -- a proportion of hormonal illnesses might be due to changes in seasonal exposure to the environment.  We'd start with those illnesses that are 'modern', such as diabetes and depression.  (even though they're explained by every aspect of modern man's existence, like diet and work, say.  Might as well join in with the bandwagon...]

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Interesting thread. Mr Dipsy has been getting himself in a right old state about waking at 3am, shall advice him to drink milk and listening to audio book for 30 mins. It'll help my sleep as well.

Edited by Dipsy

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1 hour ago, stokiescum said:

yes theres not much historical information about double sleeping but they called it the secand sleep.

Lucy Worsley made a episode of one of her history programs on the (Tudor?) bedroom, and she mentioned the second sleep and how the household would get together for a chat and a drink around 3am. It would probably have been useful to stoke the fire. She also made an episode on the bathroom, and felt the need to get into a bath to show us what it would look like. She was asked once why she had no children, and she replied that she had been 'educated out of it', but she's not been educated out of flirting. How illogical.

 

 

Edited by Everentt
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16 minutes ago, Everentt said:

Lucy Worsley made a episode of one of her history programs on the (Tudor?) bedroom, and she mentioned the second sleep and how the household would get together for a chat and a drink around 3am. It would probably have been useful to stoke the fire. She also made an episode on the bathroom, and felt the need to get into a bath to show us what it would look like. She was asked once why she had no children, and she replied that she had been 'educated out of it', but she's not been educated out of flirting. How illogical.

 

 

She's got a very saucy lisp.  

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Well I'm in the pub i did a night shift and went to bed at 10 i got up at 1 sadly i know i can easily stay up till 4am tonight unless i cheat and get wankered .sadly I'm on compulsory training tommorow for restraints and am being picked up at 8am so i want to be on the ball one of the few things i like in life is showing how useless most legal methods are for restraint it works on a numbers basis and its my way of trying to stop them cuting the numbers off staff or save money

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2 hours ago, Everentt said:

Lucy Worsley made a episode of one of her history programs on the (Tudor?) bedroom, and she mentioned the second sleep and how the household would get together for a chat and a drink around 3am. It would probably have been useful to stoke the fire. She also made an episode on the bathroom, and felt the need to get into a bath to show us what it would look like. She was asked once why she had no children, and she replied that she had been 'educated out of it', but she's not been educated out of flirting. How illogical.

 

 

Educated out of kids...

Balls.

Hanging round with a bunch of chinless homosexual hoorays.

If shed met me then shed be offering her ovaries for fertilisation.

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2 hours ago, stokiescum said:

Well I'm in the pub i did a night shift and went to bed at 10 i got up at 1 sadly i know i can easily stay up till 4am tonight unless i cheat and get wankered .sadly I'm on compulsory training tommorow for restraints and am being picked up at 8am so i want to be on the ball one of the few things i like in life is showing how useless most legal methods are for restraint it works on a numbers basis and its my way of trying to stop them cuting the numbers off staff or save money

the last time i proved how usless legal restrainst are,but i should be a good boy and go with the flo its all numbers off staff based hence they couldnt get me on the floor both instructers ended up on the floor,ok my defence was jujitsu based but thats not the point and pain complience is totaly outlawed...either way to guys 15stone plus could not control me lol.

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I suspect I may have some form of sleep apnea as I wake a few times a week finding myself struggling for breath a bit.

I need my sleep. If I have a night with little sleep (say < 3 hours) I'm a fucking mess the next day. I don't know how folk with young children manage it.

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8 hours ago, UmBongo said:

Happened to me quite a few times last year. More so when alcohol is involved - not too many pints either. Process is after some booze go home, go to bed, fall straight to sleep, wake up at 3.30-4am, ruminating thoughts and cannot get to sleep until after 5am. >:( OK if it happpens on a weekend, pisser if it's a work day.

If I have been drinking, I almost always wake at 5am in a state of total wakefulness. So much so that if, say, I have to get up for an early flight or something, I will drink a few drinks the night before just so that I am awake and alert at that time. 

I've also heard the 'two sleeps' theory but before electricity and mass literacy what did they actually do during that time? Lucy Worsley in one of her progs suggested they probably prayed and/or had sex. 

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3 hours ago, JoeDavola said:

I suspect I may have some form of sleep apnea as I wake a few times a week finding myself struggling for breath a bit.

I need my sleep. If I have a night with little sleep (say < 3 hours) I'm a fucking mess the next day. I don't know how folk with young children manage it.

Partner gets this. He'll lie in a position that means he's basically strangling himself - his throat is squashed. Then he'll grunt, wake up, and then go back to sleep again immediately.

Just to mention it: asthma tends to manifest in the middle of the night for some people (you mention struggling to breathe). Typically around 04:00.

My dad's body clock was such that he'd have a sleep in the afternoon and mine is wired up that way too. I can get away with this sometimes depending on how busy I am, he was retired.

 

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10 hours ago, DTMark said:

Partner gets this. He'll lie in a position that means he's basically strangling himself - his throat is squashed. Then he'll grunt, wake up, and then go back to sleep again immediately.

Just to mention it: asthma tends to manifest in the middle of the night for some people (you mention struggling to breathe). Typically around 04:00.

My dad's body clock was such that he'd have a sleep in the afternoon and mine is wired up that way too. I can get away with this sometimes depending on how busy I am, he was retired.

 

I was going to suggest asthma too - one of the standard questions at asthma reviews is 'does it wake you in the night?'.

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10 hours ago, DTMark said:

Partner gets this. He'll lie in a position that means he's basically strangling himself - his throat is squashed. Then he'll grunt, wake up, and then go back to sleep again immediately.

Just to mention it: asthma tends to manifest in the middle of the night for some people (you mention struggling to breathe). Typically around 04:00.

My dad's body clock was such that he'd have a sleep in the afternoon and mine is wired up that way too. I can get away with this sometimes depending on how busy I am, he was retired.

 

30 minutes ago, This Time said:

I was going to suggest asthma too - one of the standard questions at asthma reviews is 'does it wake you in the night?'.

I do at times feel I'm not able to get enough air into my lungs, and the one thing that I always fail on in a checkup is my lung capacity which is less than what it should be.

I had always thought of asthma as something that kids get, and that results in dramatic life threatening attacks.

Edited by JoeDavola

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2 minutes ago, JoeDavola said:

 

I do at times feel I'm not able to get enough air into my lungs, and the one thing that I always fail on in a checkup is my lung capacity which is less than what it should be.

I had always thought of asthma as something that kids get, and that results in dramatic life threatening attacks.

Adult onset is reasonably common and doesn't always manifest as the stereotypical wheezing. Asthma is also pretty undramatic 99.999999% of the time which is the real killer - you're less likely to take it seriously on the odd occasion that it does get life threatening. Back in 2005 I was having an asthma attack and it was a toss up between get a taxi to A&E or try to get some sleep, luckily I chose the former because I nearly died and was in intensive care for a day. 

Poor lung capacity does suggest asthma, you should get it checked out.

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In brief - two main types of asthma.

"Born with it" - it's usually for life. Depending on the severity the child may have to be admitted to hospital with severe attacks and put on a nebuliser. Often calms down in later life, but it may not.

That was me. I was one of the lucky ones. I lost the asthma aged around 14.

"Adult onset asthma" - can strike at any age. Permanent. Often starts after a nasty respiratory infection.

Me again, aged 26. Not so lucky.

I don't have any attacks. All that happens is that when I'm exposed to an allergen, including house dust mite which lives on fabrics and especially in your bed, my breathing will "thicken" slightly. There is no audible wheezing. It is uncomfortable.

Because it is brought on by allergy, an anti-histamine takes it away.

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