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One percent

Bottle deposits coming back: who in government reads dosbods?

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Well, we have mentioned this a lot on here, so I’m guessing government are reading us and nicking our ideas. :)

on a more serious note, what struck me is that there will be deposits on both plastic bottles and tin cans. 

Also, look at the graph of how much still ends up in landfill, despite the massive mush (and cos) of recycling at local council level. 

Cynically, I do wonder if this is yet another scheme to gouge the plebs. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

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14 minutes ago, One percent said:

Well, we have mentioned this a lot on here, so I’m guessing government are reading us and nicking our ideas. :)

on a more serious note, what struck me is that there will be deposits on both plastic bottles and tin cans. 

Also, look at the graph of how much still ends up in landfill, despite the massive mush (and cos) of recycling at local council level. 

Cynically, I do wonder if this is yet another scheme to gouge the plebs. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

Doesn’t go even half as far as it should. He didn’t steal my idea of 40-50 different standardized glass-only containers with washable labels to sell everything in the UK in. That one would upset the donors. Still, better than nothing I suppose. 

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This whole plastic thing - bans and whatnot is wierd.

When did it start being mentioned - 2 years aho max?

Now its all the time.

Must be somesort of convenient distraction.

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1 minute ago, spygirl said:

This whole plastic thing - bans and whatnot is wierd.

When did it start being mentioned - 2 years aho max?

Now its all the time.

Must be somesort of convenient distraction.

Or an agenda being pushed. Someone, somewhere has a money making scheme. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

Whilst I wouldn't go so far as to call this a bad thing the whole process of getting to this point looks like a cynical exercise in manipulating public opinion.

There was a big focus upon, and much repetitive citing of, plastic debris in the oceans by the medium of the Blue Planet series as transmitted by the state broadcaster.

This is not caused by British domestic waste; it is dumped by ships and by SE Asian countries particularly China.

This has then been used by the recycling lobby to not only apply it to the plastic which isn't polluting the oceans but to:

Glass and Aluminium (both entirely inert, like rocks)

Steel (which will just rust away)

And rather than a simple system of cash one of tokens is being talked about. So you pay hard cash over but when you return the bottle you get some limited use token.

 

So from some foreign countries' plastic waste polluting the ocean we have jumped to a complicated system covering plastic, glass, aluminium, and steel and the introduction of a system of multiple tokens.

Control, complexity, tax, interference, law. All making life that little bit more difficult.

Maybe it is a bad thing.

 

We are not innocent unfortunately. We do dump a lot of plastic into the sea. Form the fishing industry (derelict gear, flotsam and jetsam, fibres abraded from ropes etc), to the large amount that enters from rivers, dirty water and sewage, much of the the stuff is too small to see, such as the fibres from clothing, and hence also the microbead ban.

 

Edited by Hopeful

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1 minute ago, Hopeful said:

 

We are not innocent unfortunately. We do dump a lot of plastic into the sea. Form the fishing industry (derelict gear, flotsam and jetsam, fibres abraded from ropes etc), to the large amount that enters from rivers, dirty water and sewage, much of the the stuff is too small to see, such as the fibres from clothing, and hence the microbead ban.

 

Granted. But this whole complicated scheme will not affect any of that.

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4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Granted. But this whole complicated scheme will not affect any of that.

Yes, in the UK this is about landfill reduction mainly, and ocean litter secondarily. Do you really think anyone cares about the Oceans?

The environmental problem in the oceans is being used to persuade people.

I'm glad the ocean problem is getting a profile as it is a huge problem, (ufortunately, plastics are obscuring ocean warming and overfishing, but we can only focus on one thing, and the latest thing, at a time, right?)

In the long run, it would be better to persuade people to change their ways truthfully however, so as not to create cynics.

We've been sorting our waste for years for recycling, knowing full well it all gets mushed up in the same lorry to be just shipped to China

The problem is we don't have anyone with the courage that can make the argument for reducing landfill effectively.

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Last time I went swimming on the Isle of Purbeck the rocks were littered with hundreds if not thousands  of plastic bottles. It was miles back to the car so I spent an hour with my then girlfriend and gathered  all I could into a huge heap which I burned, it went up like a 10ft beacon of flames  from the days of smugglers, and yes I know this isn’t the ideal solution but what would have been? Plastic is a massive problem in the Uk too, it’s not just the Pacific. 

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2 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

Last time I went swimming on the Isle of Purbeck the rocks were littered with hundreds if not thousands  of plastic bottles. It was miles back to the car so I spent an hour with my then girlfriend and gathered  all I could into a huge heap which I burned, it went up like a 10ft beacon of flames  from the days of smugglers, and yes I know this isn’t the ideal solution but what would have been? Plastic is a massive problem in the Uk too, it’s not just the Pacific. 

It is now so prevalent it is seen by most people as part and parcel of the beach scene.

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Personally I don't use much plastic anyway - I never buy bottled water (total ripoff), I grow most of my veg and my fruit comes from a  local greengrocer who uses paper bags. Plastic bags such as those used to wrap porridge oats get reused as freezer bags for home grown produce. I make my own wine which just goes back into the same lot of wine bottles that the last batch was in, etc etc. 

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Just now, Austin Allegro said:

Personally I don't use much plastic anyway - I never buy bottled water (total ripoff), I grow most of my veg and my fruit comes from a  local greengrocer who uses paper bags. Plastic bags such as those used to wrap porridge oats get reused as freezer bags for home grown produce. I make my own wine which just goes back into the same lot of wine bottles that the last batch was in, etc etc. 

Superb.

I can't claim to be quite that minimal but I'm not bad.

I do only throw away plastic bottles when they break, I have about eight at the moment mostly used for water bottles in the car or on walks; though they came in very handy recently when I filled them up in anticipation of the water being cut off in the snows.  I certainly haven't bought any this year; although I do buy and throw away plenty of other plastics so I'm not blameless.

I get the impression that the biggest cheerleaders for this sort of initiative are the ones who throw away a dozen or more plastic bottles a week and feel guilty about so doing.  But rather than modify their own behaviour they want legislation brought in to apply to everyone.

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5 minutes ago, dgul said:

It is a tiny irrelevant thing that will allow everyone to go about feeling great about our place in the environment, without actually requiring anyone to change any of their environmentally bad behaviours.

[ie, overconsumption, too much needless travel, too much protection from the environment (heating, aircon), large scale waste in government and industry.]

GDP innit.

The mantra of:

Reduce

Reuse

Recycle

Is spot on.  But the government never addresses reduce and reuse because that would crash GDP.

So everyone keeps consuming like mad but it's okay because it's, like, recycled, yah?

If the government was genuinely serious about the environmental impact of single use plastic bottles then there is a very easy and incredibly effective solution: ban them from sale.

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7 minutes ago, dgul said:

It is a tiny irrelevant thing that will allow everyone to go about feeling great about our place in the environment, without actually requiring anyone to change any of their environmentally bad behaviours.

[ie, overconsumption, too much needless travel, too much protection from the environment (heating, aircon), large scale waste in government and industry.]

True. I'd rather a government had the courage to go big on this, but it's something at least. The homeless in New York (I think it was New York) used to pick up all the aluminium cans for the deposits, it would be good if we could get the same kind of thing going in the UK.

 

1 minute ago, Frank Hovis said:

If the government was genuinely serious about the environmental impact of single use plastic bottles then there is a very easy and incredibly effective solution: ban them from sale.

Spot on.

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4 minutes ago, Frank Hovis said:

Superb.

I can't claim to be quite that minimal but I'm not bad.

I do only throw away plastic bottles when they break, I have about eight at the moment mostly used for water bottles in the car or on walks; though they came in very handy recently when I filled them up in anticipation of the water being cut off in the snows.  I certainly haven't bought any this year; although I do buy and throw away plenty of other plastics so I'm not blameless.

I get the impression that the biggest cheerleaders for this sort of initiative are the ones who throw away a dozen or more plastic bottles a week and feel guilty about so doing.  But rather than modify their own behaviour they want legislation brought in to apply to everyone.

I use a heavy duty cycling bottle that I just refill and carry around. 

I think most environmental schemes only come into use if the powers that be can make money out of them. The classic example is carbon credit trading and offsetting. Actual reduction in consumption and growth is a total taboo, it can't be instituted because since 1694 everything's been a huge pyramid scheme. 

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13 minutes ago, dgul said:

[ie, overconsumption, too much needless travel, too much protection from the environment (heating, aircon), large scale waste in government and industry.]

When I was in Hawaii a few years ago there was an exhibit outside a museum of an Aeroplane, made up entirely of plastic waste collected from the ocean. 

Needless travel, phwoof!

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1 hour ago, dgul said:

But the plastic bottles are irrelevant.

How about:

For every manufactured good the manufacturer has to supply evidence of a complete strip-down and rebuild by a 'competent person' with a standard set of tools, and show support in the supply of spare parts (either directly (mandate to support for the entire expected life of the item), or through 'opening' of the design so that third parties can manufacture it).  If they do that, import tax at 0%, if they don't, import tax at 100%.

Manufacturers have to show accelerated wear measurements at an independent body -- if they can't meet 'standard expectation' (15 years for white goods, say) then import tax at 50%.

0% VAT on repairs, 30% VAT on new.

etc etc

Excellent idea

Goods could also be built to last for longer and I'd happily pay a higher initial price

But bankers have taken our money for housing

So we never have a big enough purchase pot

So we can only afford to buy cheap goods, repeatedly

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1 minute ago, Hopeful said:

Excellent idea

Goods could also be built to last for longer and I'd happily pay a higher initial price

But bankers have taken our money for housing

So we never have a big enough purchase pot

So we can only afford to buy cheap goods, repeatedly

That's the big lie -- the cost of housing is easy -- it is income - cost of everything else essential.  If the cost of everything else essential goes up, the cost of housing goes down.  Or, if the cost of everything else goes down (interest rates, say), the cost of housing goes up.

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1 minute ago, dgul said:

That's the big lie -- the cost of housing is easy -- it is income - cost of everything else essential.  If the cost of everything else essential goes up, the cost of housing goes down.  Or, if the cost of everything else goes down (interest rates, say), the cost of housing goes up.

Ultimately, yes I agree 100%, unless you just invent money and promote house prices

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Posted (edited)

.

Quote

Environment Secretary Michael Gove said there was no doubt that plastic was "wreaking havoc" on the marine environment and discarded plastic bottles and cans"end up dumped on pavements and lobbed into rivers, lakes and the sea".

The article makes no attempt to analyse the various causes of the problem.  It's all implied to be the fault of the British people just dumping it in the streets and lobbing it in the waterways..

It's clearly a problem but from the amount of items visible on a day to day basis that "end up dumped on pavements and lobbed into rivers, lakes and the sea" the amount seems quite small from the average British person although of course not non-existent and is mainly caused by lack of available countryside and street bins etc.  Yes they should take stuff home but make sure the bin lid is closed or they'll fine you etc etc.  Incidentally the lack of street bins originated in part due to anti terror reasons during the days of the IRA to stop bombers placing bombs in bins. 

If it's from Britain/British people I expect a huge amount of it is from somewhere within the official recycling system although I expect a huge amount in the sea is from outside Britain - at least not the average supermarket shopper.  There is no mention of those sources in the article. 

For Britain's contribution to the problem there's no mention of how the rapid increase in population might be contributing to it.

The new scheme is make work, tax and propaganda and making life more inefficient, difficult and costly for the little people.  For sure about spurious GDP and a small boost to the dodgy inflation figures and maybe a bit of Brexit to blame thrown in as well.  Tokens instead of cash - cheaper and more profit for them and make work for token producers and likely some debt creation on top.

You can be sure that however it's done it'll be implemented in a naff, greedy and ineffective manner (on top of the 5p carrier bag charge which has morphed in some places into no 5p bags available so cough up for a 10p bag).- there'll still be the same amount of pollution being washed up and then eventually they'll need a new scheme on top of the latest naff, greedy and ineffective scheme.

Edited by twocents

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6 minutes ago, Happy Renting said:

I note the refundable charge for bottles in Germany is about 22p, and 8p in Sweden.

I am trying out how to exploit this arbitrage.

Transport would be expensive so you'll have to persuade rich Swedes to dump them all in the Baltic then pick them all up off the North German beaches. 

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