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man o' the year

Just back from Church

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1 minute ago, eight said:

Because it smacks of superiority and self-righteousness. We need to help "them" be more like "us". What if they're content being us?

Well, some of the Evangelicals and most of the Jehovahs are like that!

The majority of Christians attempt to live quiet decent lives and do not push their beliefs onto others.

Mostly they are happy to be themselves and happy for you to do as you please.

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44 minutes ago, unregistered_guest said:

My view:

He's God - the third person of the Trinity. Which means, in the Biblical text the attributes of God: creator, all-knowing, omnipresent, eternal etc are also ascribed to Him. We use the male gender to refer to Him because He is distinct from creation. He has a personality, can be grieved, experience joy etc.

The person and work of the Holy Spirit is a theme running throughout both the Old and New Testaments - not an afterthought bolted on by later redactors. He is present at creation; empowers the artisans who made the Tabernacle (the big tent where they kept the Ark of the Covenant - the box they made to store the 10 commandments). He inspires prophets - some of whom claimed that there would be a major difference in the way the Holy Spirit works with people after the Messiah came.

So, Jesus arrived on the scene 2000 years ago, talking about how the Holy Spirit will inspire, teach and empower his followers after he has ascended. Jesus is crucified, dies, is buried and then raised from death; spending 40 days with His followers before leaving them.  Then, 10 days after He ascended,  a group of 120 of His friends have a powerful spiritual experience together in Jerusalem. They speak in tongues, and go out preaching. That group of 120 rapidly becomes a group numbering in its thousands. That's Pentecost - the church's birthday. 

Christian denominations are specialists in different doctrinal areas. Pentecostal and Charismatic churches (the clue is in the name) are the pneumatology experts. If you want to know more about speaking in tongues, healing and miracles. Although, oddly enough, according to PEW, the number of Pentecostals who speak in tongues is often in a minority. Reformed churches take a dim view of such things.

It amuses me that the Holy Spirit doesn't seem to be bothered whether Christians have a fully formed doctrine of pneumatology or not. He just gets on with His job in the background; inspiring and empowering ordinary people to accomplish extraordinary things.

But then, I'm just a Holy Troll Bot who thinks that evangelical atheism is a form of mental illness; intent on afflicting others with a religious superstition dating back to the Bronze Age. Love you all to bits though.

Thanks for that.

I was raised Catholic so have little understanding of theology. o.O

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13 hours ago, Lone Lurker said:

As I understand things, this is mostly not true of Christianity.

Maybe not now, but look into the history of Christianity and there are some terrible things done in its name. 

The message of Jesus was subverted and it took, what almost two millennia before it reverted to the message we are taught now. 

As always the problem is humans. We enjoy the power and control we can exert over others, we are a territorial animal that seeks to satisfy our basic primal urges, often without realising what we do. Even to the extent that we justify our actions with one excuse or another

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, JackieO said:

Thanks for that.

I was raised Catholic so have little understanding of theology. o.O

Snap, the nuns that taught me were very compassionate. Even now there is an air about those who have a deep belief in their religion. Cynically I say it is smug and self satisfied, but my kinder nature thinks that they are able to see the good in most and are able to disregard the darker side of our nature.

Edited by sleepwello'nights
Proof reading

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3 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

As always the problem is humans. We enjoy the power and control we can exert over others, we are a territorial animal that seeks to satisfy our basic primal urges, often without realising what we do. Even to the extent that we justify our actions with one excuse or another

So true.

I have been in many business meetings where a decision has been made, for one (hidden) reason but using other reasons to justify the decision.

We're only human :)

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37 minutes ago, Lone Lurker said:

Well, some of the Evangelicals and most of the Jehovahs are like that!

The majority of Christians attempt to live quiet decent lives and do not push their beliefs onto others.

Mostly they are happy to be themselves and happy for you to do as you please.

Good point. Generally the only religious people that non-religious people in modern Britain come into contact with are the very zealous evangelical types knocking on doors or preaching in the street. Add to that the distorted view of Christianity that is put out by the media, and it's hardly surprising most people want nothing to do with organised religion. 

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On 4/1/2018 at 12:49, man o' the year said:

Just wondered how many have been to church today. We are regulars but it was great to see maybe 500 people or so there today. To be fair this was the only service today as the usual evening service was not on. Energetic vibrant and LOUD would best describe the atmosphere.

The last church event I went to was my nephews Catholic confirmation.

The words we were all expected to sing along or read aloud included something to the effect of "kill the unbelievers". 

Very few neurons firing in that church, just the soothing sounds of brainwashing.

 

 

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Just now, VeryMeanReversion said:

The last church event I went to was my nephews Catholic confirmation.

The words we were all expected to sing along or read aloud included something to the effect of "kill the unbelievers". 

Very few neurons firing in that church, just the soothing sounds of brainwashing.

 

 

I avoid those churches where people have a glassy expression and a permanent half-smile on their faces. 

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39 minutes ago, sleepwello'nights said:

Snap, the nuns that taught me were very compassionate. Even now there is an air about those who have a deep belief in their religion. Cynically I say it is smug and self satisfied, but my kinder nature thinks that they are able to see the good in most and are able to disregard the darker side of our nature.

My wife (Convent educated) at the mention of the 'N' word:

Tn0w3HS7NW2z.gif

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On 02/04/2018 at 13:31, dgul said:

These days you're free to interpret the scriptures all sorts of ways and get away with it, no matter if you're laity or clergy.  

I always thought of Christianity in a kindly sort of way..  an institution, a whole movement based around the indelible teachings of an ancient text and a window into our cultural past.

Last time I went to church I discovered they’ve sort of dicked about with everything since I was a lad. The Lord’s Prayer, the prayer of prayers..  totally different. No more “arts” and “trespassings” ..  all modern reinterpretation.

If they’re just going to rip everything up and make it all up as they go along I don’t really see the sense or purpose in it..  even as one of historic cultural interest.

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I also noted only two demographics within the congregation..

Those who are old and wrinkly 

Those who want to get their kids into the local “good school”

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Libspero said:

I always thought of Christianity in a kindly sort of way..  an institution, a whole movement based around the indelible teachings of an ancient text and a window into our cultural past.

Last time I went to church I discovered they’ve sort of dicked about with everything since I was a lad. The Lord’s Prayer, the prayer of prayers..  totally different. No more “arts” and “trespassings” ..  all modern reinterpretation.

If they’re just going to rip everything up and make it all up as they go along I don’t really see the sense or purpose in it..  even as one of historic cultural interest.

The boomer generation changed a lot of the liturgy and traditions of the CofE - they seem to have a real dislike of anything that is 'old fashioned', not realising that the whole institution is based on someone who lived 2000 years ago FFS. So they introduce cringy 'modern' stuff which isn't really modern but is sort of 1970s trendy and which puts off a lot of people who are just casual attenders who might eventually want to become more regular. 

There are still traditional churches, but they are getting harder to find. I don't attend my local parish church because I can't stand the jazzy music and modern liturgy. Imagine the Sanctus, the most sacred and transcendent part of the communion and someone on a Yamaha keyboard strikes up a song that sounds like a Bucks Fizz reject from 1983. 

So I travel about 8 miles to a church that still uses the Book of Common Prayer and has proper hymns with an organ and choir. Unfortunately the demographic time-bomb is going to mean that in 10-20 years very few places like that will still exist. After that if I am still around I probably won't go to church and will attend a cathedral service perhaps once a  month. 

Edited by Austin Allegro

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2 hours ago, Austin Allegro said:

There are still traditional churches, but they are getting harder to find. I don't attend my local parish church because I can't stand the jazzy music and modern liturgy. Imagine the Sanctus, the most sacred and transcendent part of the communion and someone on a Yamaha keyboard strikes up a song that sounds like a Bucks Fizz reject from 1983. 

So I travel about 8 miles to a church that still uses the Book of Common Prayer and has proper hymns with an organ and choir. Unfortunately the demographic time-bomb is going to mean that in 10-20 years very few places like that will still exist. After that if I am still around I probably won't go to church and will attend a cathedral service perhaps once a  month. 

Same in the Catholic Church, plenty of 60s and 70s innovation, though these are now waning. I travel a fair distance to a traditional Latin Mass (1962) instead.

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1 minute ago, Panther said:

Same in the Catholic Church, plenty of 60s and 70s innovation, though these are now waning. I travel a fair distance to a traditional Latin Mass (1962) instead.

Interesting - I thought that had been banned after the Vatican council. 

Mind you, anyone would think the Book of Common Prayer had been banned by the way so many churches threw it out as soon as possible after the Alternative Service Book came out in 1980. 

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5 minutes ago, Austin Allegro said:

Mind you, anyone would think the Book of Common Prayer had been banned by the way so many churches threw it out as soon as possible after the Alternative Service Book came out in 1980. 

Pretty much the same with the Latin Mass, just more completely. Seems to be coming back though.

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Posted (edited)
On ‎03‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 10:30, Lone Lurker said:

Well, some of the Evangelicals and most of the Jehovahs are like that!

 

I've just come across this British film  from 1972 on youtube about evangelicals called Beware the Brethren....I think it is a bit of Oranges are not  only Fruit meets Friday 13th. Seems to have somehow got lost or banned from public memory but it looks really good and can't access a full movie version. Any bodders ever seen this or heard of it even?  It gets really good when Shirley Bassey look alike starts singing half way through.

 

Edited by crashmonitor

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

I've just come across this British film  from 1972 on youtube about evangelicals called Beware the Brethren....I think it is a bit of Oranges are not the only Fruit meets Friday 13th. Seems to have somehow got lost or banned from public memory but it looks really good and can't access a full movie version. Any bodders ever seen this or heard of it even?  It gets really good when Shirley Bassey look alike starts singing half way through.

You're using it's American title crashy - try searching for "The Fiend" instead...

EDIT: Watch it for free here  https://archive.org/details/The.Fiend.1972.DVDRip.x264AngrybunnyCG

 

XYY

Edited by The XYY Man

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Thanks XYY for the link as youtube was coming up blank. Always amazed that there are some bizarre films from that era that keep coming out of the woodwork I ever never heard of..my viewing tonight.

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34 minutes ago, crashmonitor said:

I've just come across this British film  from 1972 on youtube about evangelicals called Beware the Brethren....I think it is a bit of Oranges are not  only Fruit meets Friday 13th. Seems to have somehow got lost or banned from public memory but it looks really good and can't access a full movie version. Any bodders ever seen this or heard of it even?  It gets really good when Shirley Bassey look alike starts singing half way through.

Now that's Calvinism and a half!

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Panther said:

Now that's Calvinism and a half!

I think there was a big evangelical movement in the early 70s, I remember fervent pastors that weren't too far off tbe characterisation of Oranges are not only Fruit/ Fiend whilst the congregation were jigging in the aisles, speaking in tongues and shouting Praise the Lord.

Edited by crashmonitor

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Posted (edited)

Gosh, missed this thread. Notice it began on April 1 - fitting

Why would anyone go to Church (or any sky fairy gathering - let's not pick on CofE),

I was sent to Church as a kid - I was a vehicle for my parents to look respectable and for a bonus, it got rid of me for Sunday Morning.

As far as I could make out, and still do, it was, do as you are told: stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel down, sing this, say that, listen to this, occasionally drink from a cup after someone else, shake hands and now clear off. Oh, and I got to know Bishop Peter Ball.

Next contact with a vicar, and I can't post this often enough, was when my Aunt died and she bequeathed the village Vicar £1000 (Note: the Vicar, not the 'Church' ), and he subsequently wrote to me asking if there had been a mistake as he always thought she would leave him £10,000.

Church ? no thanks.

Some quiet time in nature watching a butterfly warm its wings, or marveling at a flower, or watching an ant carrying something 10 times its size, is good for me.

All respect to the OP, but Church is not for me.

Edited by Hopeful

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1 minute ago, Hopeful said:

Gosh, missed this thread. Notice it began on April 1 - fitting

Why would anyone go to Church (or any sky fairy gathering - let's not pick on CofE),

I was sent to Church as a kid - I was a vehicle for my parents to look respectable and for a bonus, it got rid of me for Sunday Morning.

As far as I could make out, and still do, it was, do as you are told: stand up, sit down, stand up, kneel down, sing this, say that, listen to this, occasionally drink from a cup after someone else, shake hands and now clear off. Oh, and I got to know Bishop Peter Ball.

Next contact with a vicar, and I can't post this often enough, was when my Aunt died and she bequeathed the village Vicar £1000 (Note: the Vicar, not the 'Church' ), and he subsequently wrote to me asking if there had been a mistake as he always thought she would leave him £10,000.

Church ? no thanks.

Some quiet time in nature watching a butterfly, warm its wings, or marveling at a flower, or watching an ant carrying something 10 times its size, is good for me.

All respect to the OP, but Church is not for me.

Nonbelievers are first up against the wall come the Islamic revolution. :P

People of the book at least get to be slaves or pay their dhimma tax. O.o

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On 10/04/2018 at 02:10, Libspero said:

I also noted only two demographics within the congregation..

Those who are old and wrinkly 

Those who want to get their kids into the local “good school”

Plus those that want to get laid by somebody that is either teetotal or a moderate drinker.

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On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 13:47, Panther said:

Same in the Catholic Church, plenty of 60s and 70s innovation, though these are now waning. I travel a fair distance to a traditional Latin Mass (1962) instead.

I don't attend mass very often. Although as a school child I did occasionally. Last time I went, about 20 years ago, I took my prayer book that I had been given as a present when at school. It has the masses, organised by the dates they should be held. Its in Latin, but the mass I last went to was spoken in English. Just didn't seem right to me, plus I was caught out not being able to know when to stand, sit and so on. I had to follow those who knew. 

I prefer the traditional mass in Latin.

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