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Is the UK really overcrowded?


swiss_democracy_for_all

Is the UK really overcrowded?  

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swiss_democracy_for_all
11 minutes ago, THE MAJOR said:

You, and many others, don't have a solution. You'll still be trying to find one whilst you're arse-up every Friday.

Get a grip. 

xD So you think the UK overcrowding and infrastructure issue (the raison d'etre of this thread) is a Muslim thing? You do know that most recent gimmegrants are from EE and aren't Muslims? (Kosovars and some Albanians excepted). Anyway I think we're done, this conversation has become completely irrational so regretfully I will put you on ignore. Enjoy yourself plotting armed revolt followed by Stalin-like pogroms, it's the only way you'd get your way. I hope you're not really a Major. Bye.

wolf_howling.jpg

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Long time lurking
1 hour ago, swissy_fit said:

Won't happen. Banks call the tune in UK politics and they say no. Tories have already backed off this, they know who is the real boss. What was the idea the other day - a special case for "barista visas" because Brits won't sell coffee? FFS.

If it don`t stop it will be the last term team blue has in power (my money is on UKIP gaining a lot of seats in June Labour leave vote it will be nowhere near enough but the trend is ones friend ) this problem will not go away for any political party and they all know it  for sure, they will try to bullshit it but it`s never going to work the suppression tactics have already failed Racist /xenophobe it means nothing now people don`t give a shit anymore   

1 hour ago, swissy_fit said:

Good idea. But this would have to be applied to the whole UK population, not just gimmegrants(or no trade deals with EU). This could conceivably happen if May has a 150-200 majority but I doubt it, it would take real balls and probably would require abolishing the Lords. Too many people already on the

Whilst in the EU i would agree but once out they will have the power to restrict benefits to gimmegrants without affecting the indigenous population  ,i they chose not to the result will be as above

 

1 hour ago, swissy_fit said:

It was never an answer, just a way of permitting the banks to keep skimming, extend and pretend while hoping the poorer people didn't notice.  

 Can`t realy argue with that one ..trouble is they noticed a long time ago but could do jack shit about it until Dave gave them a stick to beat him with  IMO the genie is well and truly out the bottle now and it`s not going back in via the requests of team blue red or yellow 

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swiss_democracy_for_all
12 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

If it don`t stop it will be the last term team blue has in power (my money is on UKIP gaining a lot of seats in June Labour leave vote it will be nowhere near enough but the trend is ones friend ) this problem will not go away for any political party and they all know it  for sure, they will try to bullshit it but it`s never going to work the suppression tactics have already failed Racist /xenophobe it means nothing now people don`t give a shit anymore   

It'll be interesting if people pick up on the Tories backing off immigration cuts and vote UKIP. It's not something the MSM are pushing, they are pushing the UKIP-shambles theme. I'm extremely nervous of a massive May majority, let's not forget what the Tories are, just because the rest are shit as well. She's not a conviction politician and has changed her tone significantly already since she took office.

I suspect the EU are going to build things relating to the treatment of EU folks already in the UK into the trade agreements, any differentiation between them and UK nationals and the trade agreements will be invalid. Just as an example, you think Romania and Bulgaria want the Roma back there? They're very happy to have them in the UK selling the Big Issue.

 

At the end of the day, even if the doors are shut (they won't be, but hypothetically) there are 6-7m extra people in the UK now who will NOT be deported, more to come before Brexit happens, and stuff needs to be built to deal with this, on a massive scale. A lot of people don't want to hear that, but it's the only way to get back some quality of life for the indigenous population. 

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Long time lurking
7 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

It'll be interesting if people pick up on the Tories backing off immigration cuts and vote UKIP. It's not something the MSM are pushing, they are pushing the UKIP-shambles theme. I'm extremely nervous of a massive May majority, let's not forget what the Tories are, just because the rest are shit as well. She's not a conviction politician and has changed her tone significantly already since she took office.

I suspect the EU are going to build things relating to the treatment of EU folks already in the UK into the trade agreements, any differentiation between them and UK nationals and the trade agreements will be invalid. Just as an example, you think Romania and Bulgaria want the Roma back there? They're very happy to have them in the UK selling the Big Issue.

 

At the end of the day, even if the doors are shut (they won't be, but hypothetically) there are 6-7m extra people in the UK now who will NOT be deported, more to come before Brexit happens, and stuff needs to be built to deal with this, on a massive scale. A lot of people don't want to hear that, but it's the only way to get back some quality of life for the indigenous population. 

It won`t happen this time around but next time for sure ,the Labour leave vote are at a crossroads ,i watched the talking heads on the news doing straw polls on the street last night, who will you vote for in June they were in a die hard Labour strong hold when asked would it be Labour of Conservative  most said neither as Labour dose not support brexit ...they would sell their grandmother into slavery before voting Conservative .

None will deport anyone but theres ways and means just look at what Australia are doing of late when it comes to residency and citizenship ..

As for benefits it`s simple you have to have ten years contributions to claim , the government could start paying national insurance for kids from the age of eight to eighteen and retrospectively "pay" for those 18 or younger from the date they change the rules ...that would sort that problem out for the majority . 

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One percent
3 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

It won`t happen this time around but next time for sure ,the Labour leave vote are at a crossroads ,i watched the talking heads on the news doing straw polls on the street last night, who will you vote for in June they were in a die hard Labour strong hold when asked would it be Labour of Conservative  most said neither as Labour dose not support brexit ...they would sell their grandmother into slavery before voting Conservative .

None will deport anyone but theres ways and means just look at what Australia are doing of late when it comes to residency and citizenship ..

As for benefits it`s simple you have to have ten years contributions to claim , the government could start paying national insurance for kids from the age of eight to eighteen and retrospectively "pay" for those 18 or younger from the date they change the rules ...that would sort that problem out for the majority . 

There is not the political will though. I'm eagerly awaiting the manifestos to emerge but from what I have gleaned from the news, it seems that both parties have no plans to inhibit the gimigants from arriving, nor curbing benefits or getting housing under control.  The blue team are making a good fist of claiming to be anti brexit but were the ones with the scariest stories, chicken licking style, at the referendum. The red team who have traditionally been anti Europe have come out as saying brexit is a bad thing. 

None seem to want to protect our traditional way of life  

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3 hours ago, swissy_fit said:

This is a good point, that England is certainly more crowded than the rest of the UK. Unfortunately I haven't got "Real" (ie usable land) population density figures for England, only the UK. I'd guess with Switzerland at 1900 per km2 and UK at 1077 that England and Switzerland are quite close to being the same. But Switzerland doesn't seem anything like as crowded.....(The "real" Swiss whinge a bit because they haven't all got 2nd houses like they had 40 years ago, but trust me it's not the shithole that the UK has become)

Not sure where you are getting your figures from but a quick search suggests that Switzerland is 210 per km2 which might explain why it doesn't seem anything like as crowded.

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Long time lurking
50 minutes ago, One percent said:

There is not the political will though. I'm eagerly awaiting the manifestos to emerge but from what I have gleaned from the news, it seems that both parties have no plans to inhibit the gimigants from arriving, nor curbing benefits or getting housing under control.  The blue team are making a good fist of claiming to be anti brexit but were the ones with the scariest stories, chicken licking style, at the referendum. The red team who have traditionally been anti Europe have come out as saying brexit is a bad thing. 

None seem to want to protect our traditional way of life  

Well i cant argue with that one 

I do think the game is up bullshit is not going to cut it  ,but it will take time as in many years, IMO this election was all about kicking UKIP when they are down and that worries me .reading between the lines team blue are bullshiting IMO , and by the time the negotiating processes is over late 2019 i think they know they would have put their cards on the table with only another year or so to the next GE this would have been a UKIP` wet dream  now they have an extra two years to work the pack ...will it work feck knows but they will be judged by how they control immigration none-the less ,people will have to see a physical difference ...ONS numbers will mean jack shit  

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One percent
1 minute ago, Long time lurking said:

Well i cant argue with that one 

I do think the game is up bullshit is not going to cut it  ,but it will take time as in many years, IMO this election was all about kicking UKIP when they are down and that worries me .reading between the lines team blue are bullshiting IMO , and by the time the negotiating processes is over late 2019 i think they know they would have put their cards on the table with only another year or so to the next GE this would have been a UKIP` wet dream  now they have an extra two years to work the pack ...will it work feck knows but they will be judged by how they control immigration none-the less ,people will have to see a physical difference ...ONS numbers will mean jack shit  

That's an interesting analysis. I didn't think about the ukip angle and haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere. It makes total sense, more so than any other reason I have heard about why the sudden snap election. 

I guess the downside to your analysis is that by the time the sheeple have woken up and there is another opportunity, there will be a whole new lot of 'new' voters which might tip the balance towards any party who,promises to keep it all going.  

Mind the cost is not sustainable so we will then end up,either running out of money or taking our wages home in a wheelbarrow in a replay of the Weimar Republic

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Long time lurking
3 minutes ago, One percent said:

That's an interesting analysis. I didn't think about the ukip angle and haven't seen it mentioned elsewhere. It makes total sense, more so than any other reason I have heard about why the sudden snap election. 

I guess the downside to your analysis is that by the time the sheeple have woken up and there is another opportunity, there will be a whole new lot of 'new' voters which might tip the balance towards any party who,promises to keep it all going.  

Mind the cost is not sustainable so we will then end up,either running out of money or taking our wages home in a wheelbarrow in a replay of the Weimar Republic

Possible but there will be a lot of snowflake students that will have entered the big bad world of working for a living and trying to put a roof over their heads and possibly a family's ...perceptions change 

As for the UKIP angle i don`t think this next election is as clear cut as most think (yes team blue will win ) but i think UKIP will be the surprise watch the labour heartlands of the N/E   Midlands and Wales especially the South they are realy in no mans land at this moment in time and team blue is not an option Corbyn is dancing to the anti   establishment  tune but IMO he`s dancing to the wrong tune 

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One percent
7 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

Possible but there will be a lot of snowflake students that will have entered the big bad world of working for a living and trying to put a roof over their heads and possibly a family's ...perceptions change 

As for the UKIP angle i don`t think this next election is as clear cut as most think (yes team blue will win ) but i think UKIP will be the surprise watch the labour heartlands of the N/E   Midlands and Wales especially the South they are realy in no mans land at this moment in time and team blue is not an option Corbyn is dancing to the anti   establishment  tune but IMO he`s dancing to the wrong tune 

You could well be right.

in what way do you think steptoe is playing it wrong.  I thought his position was either very brave or very stupid. He almost had my vote because of this then he went full-on remoaner. 

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Long time lurking
14 minutes ago, One percent said:

You could well be right.

in what way do you think steptoe is playing it wrong.  I thought his position was either very brave or very stupid. He almost had my vote because of this then he went full-on remoaner. 

I think he`s taken the snowflakes view of breixt "it was an anti establishment vote" which to a point is right but what the labour voters did not like about the establishment was FOM it`s not so much about the amount of people for those voters it`s all about the damage those extrat people have done to those voters personal  GDP etc

They still don`t see/acknowledge  what damage this has done to his core voters ,you see charts of "real "wage growth in the UK being minus  10%  in the last ten years i would say it`s closer to a nominal 10% for most tradesmen (the A typical labour voter)

It`s going to be very interesting where the Labour leave vote goes to say the least  ,i`m hopping a good slice of it goes to UKIP just to keep team blue on it`s toes 

Edited by Long time lurking
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One percent
2 minutes ago, Long time lurking said:

I think he`s taken the snowflakes view of breixt "it was an anti establishment vote" which to a point is right but what the labour voters did not like about the establishment was FOM it`s not so much about the amount of people for those voters it`s all about the damage those extrat people have done to those voters personal  GDP etc

They still don`t see/acknowledge  what damage this has done to his core voters ,you see charts of "real wage growth in the UK being minus  10%  i would say it`s closer to a nominal 10% for most tradesmen (the A typical labour voter)

It`s going to be very interesting where the Labour leave vote goes to say the least  ,i`m hopping a good slice of it goes to UKIP just to keep team blue on it`s toes 

But if his view is that brexit was an antiestablishment vote and he is pinning his election rhetoric on an antiestablishment stance, then surely he should also be supporting brexit?

sometimes, just on the very odd occasion, steptoe is a mass of contradiction and doesn't make sense. 

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Long time lurking
28 minutes ago, One percent said:

But if his view is that brexit was an antiestablishment vote and he is pinning his election rhetoric on an antiestablishment stance, then surely he should also be supporting brexit?

sometimes, just on the very odd occasion, steptoe is a mass of contradiction and doesn't make sense. 

Well thats the point it`s his view not his voters view  ,i come from a part of the world where the labor vote was tribal ,i have asked people in the past why are you voting Labour overwhelmingly the answer was because im working class they are the working class party or evryone in my family votes Labour ..never did you get a answer saying because they said this or that in there manifesto 

They have woken up now they realy are thinking about what the party are saying and from what i have seen and heard they don`t like it sitting on the fence when it comes to brexit is not going to cut it where they go is the big question  

Steptoe IMO is between a rock and a hard place on one side you have the tree hugging snowflakes (they put him at the top) and on the other side you have the working class they are diametrically apposed i think antiestablisment is his only hope ,as it will appeal to the snowflakes in a "young ones" sort of way and it might strike a chord with the leave vote IMO the working class can see the bullshit 

Edited by Long time lurking
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swiss_democracy_for_all
3 hours ago, NTB said:

Not sure where you are getting your figures from but a quick search suggests that Switzerland is 210 per km2 which might explain why it doesn't seem anything like as crowded.

The key words are usable land, I posted a link to the relevant figures. You can't live on vertical cliffs or in lakes or above 2000m. The bits of CH you can live in are more densely populated than the U.K, 1900 per km2, U.K. = 1077 per km2. But they have infrastructure.....

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swiss_democracy_for_all
3 hours ago, One percent said:

There is not the political will though. I'm eagerly awaiting the manifestos to emerge but from what I have gleaned from the news, it seems that both parties have no plans to inhibit the gimigants from arriving, nor curbing benefits or getting housing under control.  The blue team are making a good fist of claiming to be anti brexit but were the ones with the scariest stories, chicken licking style, at the referendum. The red team who have traditionally been anti Europe have come out as saying brexit is a bad thing. 

None seem to want to protect our traditional way of life  

Exactly. Banks say no, so liblabcon say no. Unless we vote for another way of funding politics, it'all be that way for ever. They are going to keep coming until a non-bank-funded party has significant power. Ukip no time to organize resistance in their state, they needed a couple of years. Get used to it, and consider mitigation of the effects for the next 5 years until ukip get themselves going. Hint : BUILD.

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20 hours ago, swissy_fit said:

True, many people wouldn't back it, but mainly through ignorance and nimbyism. The 7m or so people are already in the UK now, Brexit won't involve sending anyone home, and the Tories are backing off cutting immigration. So unless the building is done, the squeeze will continue.

It was hugely popular on The Other Site but I have to say I really don't agree with the idea that anyone who doesn't want the beautiful British countryside paved over is a NIMBY. Many appreciate the countryside wherever it is, north or south, east or west - once it's gone, it's gone, nothing to do with NIMBYism really as it's not all in my back yard.

 

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This is typical liberal apologist reasoning, shut the argument down if it doesn't suit them, and still adhere to the concept that we can't do anything about it.

Probably voted against Brexit too.

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swiss_democracy_for_all
16 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

It was hugely popular on The Other Site but I have to say I really don't agree with the idea that anyone who doesn't want the beautiful British countryside paved over is a NIMBY. Some of us appreciate the countryside wherever it is, north or south, east or west - once it's gone, it's gone.

Yeah that's fair enough, not all resistance to building is nimbyism. I'm not advocating building on the prettiest and best countryside, but there's a lot of nondescript stuff in greenbelt that we wouldn't miss much. Less than 3% of land is built on in the UK, a bit more if you only count usable land. Government sequestration of brownfield sites and many large new eco-towns on existing trainlines where possible with a full infrastructure to go with them would be my choice. A rise from 3% to 3.3% in built area with accompanying infrastructure, say, a 10% increase, would massively reduce pressure. 

The simple fact is the extra 7m people are already in the UK and the squeeze is affecting everyone except the top 20% or so,  even for them their kids are often affected. If you can get the idea past the banks, by all means close the doors, but what are you going to do about those already there? There are no perfect answers. Fingers in the ears and la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you seems the most common response, no wonder politicians don't tell hard truths.

Here's a good article from the economist. http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21716626-solve-its-housing-crisis-country-must-learn-love-urban-britains-delusions-about

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1 hour ago, swissy_fit said:

Yeah that's fair enough, not all resistance to building is nimbyism. I'm not advocating building on the prettiest and best countryside, but there's a lot of nondescript stuff in greenbelt that we wouldn't miss much. Less than 3% of land is built on in the UK, a bit more if you only count usable land. Government sequestration of brownfield sites and many large new eco-towns on existing trainlines where possible with a full infrastructure to go with them would be my choice. A rise from 3% to 3.3% in built area with accompanying infrastructure, say, a 10% increase, would massively reduce pressure. 

The simple fact is the extra 7m people are already in the UK and the squeeze is affecting everyone except the top 20% or so,  even for them their kids are often affected. If you can get the idea past the banks, by all means close the doors, but what are you going to do about those already there? There are no perfect answers. Fingers in the ears and la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you seems the most common response, no wonder politicians don't tell hard truths.

Here's a good article from the economist. http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21716626-solve-its-housing-crisis-country-must-learn-love-urban-britains-delusions-about

With the current/impending failure of globalism, a lot of our crops will need to be grown nearer to home again. 97% of land you refer to is already being used mostly for farming, I suspect, so we'll need every scrap of it in the not-too-distant future.

I'd support building on brownfield sites, of which there are many. Problem is that developers don't want to fork out and would rather pave over a corn field, coupled with the local council who are always happy to wave it through - as long as the developer gives them £200k.

Pissing into the wind worrying about where to house the incomers by the way; as you state nobody else seems to worry about it so why even utilise the old grey matter on it. A lot of other unpleasant things have got to give before then anyway. 

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swiss_democracy_for_all
1 hour ago, spunko2010 said:

With the current/impending failure of globalism, a lot of our crops will need to be grown nearer to home again. 97% of land you refer to is already being used mostly for farming, I suspect, so we'll need every scrap of it in the not-too-distant future.

I'd support building on brownfield sites, of which there are many. Problem is that developers don't want to fork out and would rather pave over a corn field, coupled with the local council who are always happy to wave it through - as long as the developer gives them £200k.

Pissing into the wind worrying about where to house the incomers by the way; as you state nobody else seems to worry about it so why even utilise the old grey matter on it. A lot of other unpleasant things have got to give before then anyway. 

This is the future of farming. Very small for now, but it's going to be massive. http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/05/world/aerofarms-indoor-farming/ Land won't be quite the same issue as before, more a question of energy, and that's going to get cheaper too. So yeah, local crops, but not as we know them.

Yes, government would have to take an active role in planning to prevent local stupid corrupt decisions and encourage brownfield development. Of course they won't though...

Housing the incomers not the main aim - the idea is to make the indigenous population(or their children at least)  more comfortable!(so in my world they'd get first dibs on the nice warm new eco-houses in the new towns)

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Chewing Grass
22 hours ago, swissy_fit said:

Amusing but none of it will happen, I'm trying to propose a real solution to improve the quality of life in my home nation, I might have to go back there permanently sometime

So out of curiosity where is home and where do you live now, out of perspective, I'm confused?

Remember sheep have simple minds and are easily worried/flustered.

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swiss_democracy_for_all
10 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

So out of curiosity where is home and where do you live now, out of perspective, I'm confused?

Remember sheep have simple minds and are easily worried/flustered.

I'm a Brit who lives in Switzerland most of the time. Was a bit shocked on my last 2 visits to the UK, motorways lined with rubbish, traffic jams everywhere, queues for everything, frazzled people, a real sense of overwhelmed infrastructure. South West still quite quiet and tidy, but the rest, wow.

Did Brits suddenly start emptying their cars out of the windows, or is that a new arrivals thing?

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30 minutes ago, swissy_fit said:

I'm a Brit who lives in Switzerland most of the time. Was a bit shocked on my last 2 visits to the UK, motorways lined with rubbish, traffic jams everywhere, queues for everything, frazzled people, a real sense of overwhelmed infrastructure. South West still quite quiet and tidy, but the rest, wow.

Did Brits suddenly start emptying their cars out of the windows, or is that a new arrivals thing?

Round here it's an Irish Traveller thing. And I'm not exaggerating, all the rubbish thrown out of cars outside my house according to my cctv is from pikeys. 

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Chewing Grass
23 minutes ago, spunko2010 said:

Round here it's an Irish Traveller thing. And I'm not exaggerating, all the rubbish thrown out of cars outside my house according to my cctv is from pikeys. 

Ride round on my bike and see some unbelievable stuff dumped, I run on the assumption it's prinicipally because Local Authourities won't let anything that resembles a van take stuff to the tip. Sorry, mafia run recycling centre.

The big business round here that also pisses me off is scrotes renting an old or rundown warehouse, filling it with bales of plastic and cardboard and then torching the place. This is officially classed as recycling and money can be made in oodles from the practice unless you own the burn't out shell of a building or end up having to clear it when the fucker disappears or gets locked up. This lot below is probably too wet to burn!

not_recycling.jpg.ff80aa1dacec7fa7eec50c86d134dbc5.jpg

75000 tons of 'recycling' that will cost the negligent 'landlord' £10 million to clear, been there that long trees are growing out of it, so this lot is landfill.

http://www.thisischeshire.co.uk/news/15196519.Company_director_jailed_after_illegally_dumping_75_000_tonnes_of_waste___leaving_landowner_with___10m_bill/?ref=mr&lp=5

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/boss-firm-behind-two-giant-12823776

 

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