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Chewing Grass

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Just now, SNACR said:

Mystified why anyone buys one since they have clearly been the bell end's weapon of choice for years.

I think you answered your own question mate :D

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My understanding is that one of the reasons Hertz is in trouble...

[Hertz bonds are not considered safe, eg:

Screen-Shot-2017-05-11-at-17.32.28.png?s

]

is that their estimated resale values of their assets (cars) haven't kept up with changes in the actual car resale markets.

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1 hour ago, The Idiocrat said:

Don't worry, after the election they'll bring in a diesel scrappage scheme using taxpayer funds in order to carry on subsidising the car and finance industries improving the environment.

ETA: On a more positive note, I look forward to lots of cheap second hand cars. Having said that, my 12 and 17 year old cars are still going strong and have recently passed their MOTs with no advisories, so I'm not planning on changing soon.

Snap.  Chewys Citroen is the same 135K miles 11 years old, straight through MOT, no rust, still does 55-60 mpg and other than tyres and servicing has only needed 1 set of pads & disks and a cambelt & water pump over this period. This is entirely due to not driving it like a tool.

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1 hour ago, SNACR said:

Mystified why anyone buys one since they have clearly been the bell end's weapon of choice for years. There's not much they offer these days that either a VAG group model or another marque don't.

Buying a used AUDI is extremely risky as a very high percentage of them have been completely thrashed which means there is a very high risk of big engine bills.

They are rather amusingly seen as sports cars whereas their shared engine/floorplan bretheren are not..

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16 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

Buying a used AUDI is extremely risky as a very high percentage of them have been completely thrashed which means there is a very high risk of big engine bills.

They are rather amusingly seen as sports cars whereas their shared engine/floorplan bretheren are not..

Yes.  Don't buy an Audi for exactly this reason.  If you want 'that sort of thing', get one of the equivalent from the family range.

[I've had some very fast cars in my time, but these days I favour slower cars -- they post significantly less risk to my license, and they can still be 'fun', albeit at lower (and thus less dangerous) speeds.]

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26 minutes ago, Chewing Grass said:

Snap.  Chewys Citroen is the same 135K miles 11 years old, straight through MOT, no rust, still does 55-60 mpg and other than tyres and servicing has only needed 1 set of pads & disks and a cambelt & water pump over this period. This is entirely due to not driving it like a tool.

Excellent. Mine are on 200k-odd between them. I'm trying to stop my girlfriend from buying a new car - she has a Volvo with 105k on it and I'm telling her it's at most a third through its life. "Pressure" from the Joneses.

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2 hours ago, The Idiocrat said:

Don't what you mean. Do you think I'm making that up?

Obviously I don't think you're making it up. Just amazing how often you hear similar on internet forums, when the real life experience of most people running cars of that vintage would be a fairly frequent flow of repair bills for minor to less minor niggles.

Edited by eight

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10 minutes ago, eight said:

Obviously I don't think you're making it up. Just amazing how often you hear similar on internet forums, when the real life experience of most people running cars of that vintage would be a fairly frequent flow of repair bills for minor to less minor niggles.

Ah, yes, I know what you mean. I really think it does depend on picking the right ones in terms of build quality. A lot of that boils down to people not understanding what it takes to keep an older car well-maintained and on the road. Yes, they'll need bits replacing at 10 years old that they don't need at 3 years old, such as cambelts (or suspension parts in particular if you have an Alfa Romeo!), but it will still be a lot cheaper than the depreciation on a several newer cars in the same timeframe, and a damn site better for the environment too as newer cars would not have to have been built! I find late 90s/early '00s cars a bit of a sweet spot and very good value - not too complicated in the electronics but still have safety features like airbags and ABS, and well proven mechanically and rust-protected (unless it's a '00s Mercedes, which are terribly prone to rust).

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3 minutes ago, The Idiocrat said:

Ah, yes, I know what you mean. I really think it does depend on picking the right ones in terms of build quality. A lot of that boils down to people not understanding what it takes to keep an older car well-maintained and on the road. Yes, they'll need bits replacing at 10 years old that they don't need at 3 years old, such as cambelts (or suspension parts in particular if you have an Alfa Romeo!), but it will still be a lot cheaper than the depreciation on a several newer cars in the same timeframe, and a damn site better for the environment too as newer cars would not have to have been built! I find late 90s/early '00s cars a bit of a sweet spot and very good value - not too complicated in the electronics but still have safety features like airbags and ABS, and well proven mechanically and rust-protected (unless it's a '00s Mercedes, which are terribly prone to rust).

Were you the guy on HPC with the old Alfas then?

We have a new (66) car and an old (Y/2001) car. What you have with the new car is contingency - you know that you're not going to be on the hook for a massive repair bill or, hopefully, dealing with a catastrophic failure just out of the blue at any point. There's also tax to take into account - the old Fiat is now at £185/year whereas the Suzuki is free to minimal for the time being. Then no MOT to worry about for three years. Fuel economy is similar at 50's-ish for both of them, but it wouldn't take too many unexpected costs on the Fiat for it to become the more expensive drive, per mile, of the two.

Of course the worst possible situation is to be driving an old car and have no real financial cushion to deal with any issues that might arise. I've been there and it is stressful.

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6 minutes ago, The Idiocrat said:

Ah, yes, I know what you mean. I really think it does depend on picking the right ones in terms of build quality. A lot of that boils down to people not understanding what it takes to keep an older car well-maintained and on the road. Yes, they'll need bits replacing at 10 years old that they don't need at 3 years old, such as cambelts (or suspension parts in particular if you have an Alfa Romeo!), but it will still be a lot cheaper than the depreciation on a several newer cars in the same timeframe, and a damn site better for the environment too as newer cars would not have to have been built! I find late 90s/early '00s cars a bit of a sweet spot and very good value - not too complicated in the electronics but still have safety features like airbags and ABS, and well proven mechanically and rust-protected (unless it's a '00s Mercedes, which are terribly prone to rust).

I keep old cars on the road rather than buy new ones.

I've got a 30yr (150,000 miles) and a 25 yr (160,000 miles) and the wife has a 20 year old (but only 40,000 miles).

But, as you might see from there being 3 cars above -- with this vintage you have to have one more car than you need.  I'd suggest that over the year about 10% of the time one car is out of action -- usually something trivial, but out of action nonetheless.  It still works out far cheaper than buying new, but probably isn't compared with buying 5yr olds.  But I quite like the old things, so I'm fairly contented.

But, 1990s cars are the sweet spot -- not normally that rusty, but actually are repairable.  More modern cars are IMO not designed to be repaired for many ailments, and certainly not by the amateur.

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I've never been terribly convinced on bangernomics, unless you maybe do low mileage, even now cars making it to 200k are not that common beyond certain models known for longevity, 300k is very rare. Most cars over 100k are still in a risk zone of an engine failure that would put the car beyond economic repair if a commercial garage had to be paid to repair it.

Say you buy something with 120k on the clock, for £6k, the timing chain snaps and it needs a new engine, so you get a garage to put a secondhand engine in and it costs £3k, as that's less than buying another car the same, so you've got £9k sunk into it plus the rest of the car is still the same age and you've got high odds of another bill in the not too distant future.

Alternatively you could have bought a brand new car for £20k, with a 5 year warranty, that you could probably sell for nearly £10k at the end of the warranty so you've seen £10k go but, you had a car with peace of mind, on repairs, for five years, no mot bills for three of those and it came with full tread tyres and unworn brake discs and pads.

Ok, so there's the fix it yourself strategy. The internet has probably made car repairs, for the average technically minded person, more accessible than ever but, I find, the number of people, who aren't mechanics by trade, who can do any vehicle repair without resorting in taking it to a garage at some stage are small. Then even if you're one of those there's still going to be an investment in tools, bushes and wheel bearings you're most likely going to need a substantial hydraulic press then there's the endless model specific special tools the job's near impossible without. Yes a lot of those tools are available cheap on ebay now but can you do without the car for five days whilst it arrives.

In general I still think if you can't afford to be without a car, want low hassle, and do a lot of mileage, beyond a few, frankly often boring, models known for fairly troublefree longevity new with a long warranty is the way to go.

 

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2 minutes ago, SNACR said:

Alternatively you could have bought a brand new car for £20k, with a 5 year warranty, that you could probably sell for nearly £10k at the end of the warranty so you've seen £10k go but, you had a car with peace of mind, on repairs, for five years, no mot bills for three of those and it came with full tread tyres and unworn brake discs and pads.

 

Even just the fluids supplied in the average new car would probably set you back the neck end of a hundred quid.

Since I have been evaluating the electric conversion for the Fiat it has really brought home to me just how many things there are to go wrong on your car. It's amazing how reliable they are, actually.

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2 minutes ago, SNACR said:

I've never been terribly convinced on bangernomics, unless you maybe do low mileage, even now cars making it to 200k are not that common beyond certain models known for longevity, 300k is very rare. Most cars over 100k are still in a risk zone of an engine failure that would put the car beyond economic repair if a commercial garage had to be paid to repair it.

Say you buy something with 120k on the clock, for £6k, the timing chain snaps and it needs a new engine, so you get a garage to put a secondhand engine in and it costs £3k, as that's less than buying another car the same, so you've got £9k sunk into it plus the rest of the car is still the same age and you've got high odds of another bill in the not too distant future.

Alternatively you could have bought a brand new car for £20k, with a 5 year warranty, that you could probably sell for nearly £10k at the end of the warranty so you've seen £10k go but, you had a car with peace of mind, on repairs, for five years, no mot bills for three of those and it came with full tread tyres and unworn brake discs and pads.

Ok, so there's the fix it yourself strategy. The internet has probably made car repairs, for the average technically minded person, more accessible than ever but, I find, the number of people, who aren't mechanics by trade, who can do any vehicle repair without resorting in taking it to a garage at some stage are small. Then even if you're one of those there's still going to be an investment in tools, bushes and wheel bearings you're most likely going to need a substantial hydraulic press then there's the endless model specific special tools the job's near impossible without. Yes a lot of those tools are available cheap on ebay now but can you do without the car for five days whilst it arrives.

In general I still think if you can't afford to be without a car, want low hassle, and do a lot of mileage, beyond a few, frankly often boring, models known for fairly troublefree longevity new with a long warranty is the way to go.

 

Bangernomics means buying the car for £600, not £6k.  When the engine goes you call the scappie and buy another.  Keeping it on the road means brakes, servicing, bearings, bushings, etc.  Hardcore stuff is for those with the skills and equipment -- I've done engines etc, but for the £500ish car it isn't worth it.

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2 minutes ago, dgul said:

Bangernomics means buying the car for £600, not £6k.  When the engine goes you call the scappie and buy another.  Keeping it on the road means brakes, servicing, bearings, bushings, etc.  Hardcore stuff is for those with the skills and equipment -- I've done engines etc, but for the £500ish car it isn't worth it.

Personally I would say bangernomics is buying any used car where the engine has most likely seen its best days. I do agree it's often used as an acceptable way of hiding an obsessive compulsive disorder, to constantly buy shit old cars, as some sort of sane money saving strategy.

There's a whole forum of them over at Autoshite.

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3 minutes ago, SNACR said:

Personally I would say bangernomics is buying any used car where the engine has most likely seen its best days. I do agree it's often used as an acceptable way of hiding an obsessive compulsive disorder, to constantly buy shit old cars, as some sort of sane money saving strategy.

There's a whole forum of them over at Autoshite.

I'm also not sure where these cheap cars (and, indeed, parts) actually are. In theory with the cost and availability of new cars, cars knocking on the door of even ten years old should be practically free. Whereas on the occasions I do stumble across one for sale it tends to be in the two to three grand ballpark. In the same perverse manner that phones in those trade-in places always seem to be about ten quid less than a brand new one.  

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19 minutes ago, eight said:

I'm also not sure where these cheap cars (and, indeed, parts) actually are. In theory with the cost and availability of new cars, cars knocking on the door of even ten years old should be practically free. Whereas on the occasions I do stumble across one for sale it tends to be in the two to three grand ballpark. In the same perverse manner that phones in those trade-in places always seem to be about ten quid less than a brand new one.  

Yes, prices definitely seem too strong at the bottom end there's some sort of weird price bands thing going on as well, a bit like houses, where you don't have to spend a lot more to get something much bigger and better.  I sold my brother-in-laws van off, on ebay, a while back. Twelve years old, well past it's best and not known for reliability but did have an MOT. I thought it might make £1k or £1.5k tops but it went for nearly £4K.

The source for the few hundred quid cars is people selling old folks cars, who have given up driving, off on ebay after they've been sat in the garage for ten years. That way they can buy a thirty year old 'time warp' condition Austin Maestro for £300 as part of the time warp they get the unreliable mechanicals, of the time, plus the added excitement jeopardy of perished rubber hoses and seals, that can go pop at any moment, from it being laid up so long.

Edited by SNACR

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16 minutes ago, SNACR said:

Yes, prices definitely seem too strong at the bottom end there's some sort of weird price bands thing going on as well, a bit like houses, where you don't have to spend a lot more to get something much bigger and better.  I sold my brother-in-laws van off, on ebay, a while back. Twelve years old, well past it's best and not known for reliability but did have an MOT. I thought it might make £1k or £1.5k tops but it went for nearly £4K.

The source for the few hundred quid cars is people selling old folks cars, who have given up driving, off on ebay after they've been sat in the garage for ten years. That way they can buy a thirty year old 'time warp' condition Austin Maestro for £300 as part of the time warp they get the unreliable mechanicals, of the time, plus the added excitement jeopardy of perished rubber hoses and seals, that can go pop at any moment, from it being laid up so long.

30 years is too old for bangernomics -- it only makes sense at that age if you're getting something 1/2 desirable and are willing to put in the effort to keep it on the road.

around 2002 is interesting as it is about when they made a few things more difficult (like emissions).  As it stands 2001 is a bit better than 2003 (I think).  Otherwise the sweet spot would be about 2007 atm.

There are loads of cheap cars on ebay.  You just look at them and weed out the ones that have been shagged.  About 10% are in really good condition mechanically.  5% good mechanically and cosmetically.  You really don't want one of the shagged ones.  Loads available at <£1k.  You're clearly not going to be in the 'desirable cars' group, though (ie, cool/trendy). 

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6 hours ago, The Idiocrat said:

Don't worry, after the election they'll bring in a diesel scrappage scheme using taxpayer funds in order to carry on subsidising the car and finance industries improving the environment.

ETA: On a more positive note, I look forward to lots of cheap second hand cars. Having said that, my 12 and 17 year old cars are still going strong and have recently passed their MOTs with no advisories, so I'm not planning on changing soon.

Pretty sure that'll prove to be the case, we're already being softened to the idea that diesels are evil by the Vile BBC etc. 

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I've had a 1998 Toyota Hiace campervan for over 3 years now and I love it. Best vehicle I've ever owned.

Got a local independent guy who services it and does any repairs. Apart from two tyres and replacement window wipers I've only had to replace back suspension things so far but I think it has had a steering fluid leak so it'll be going to garage next week to be repaired. I don't think it'll be a huge bill.

I have no option to buy a new car because I can't afford one but I do prefer older vehicles anyway with less gadgets and electrical systems. For me simpler=better.

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