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Chewing Grass

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EU induced restriction on choice expands as Ford Focus RS is killed off.

'Ford Focus RS needs a high-output, full-hybrid powertrain that fits in within the chassis and new EU regime for average fleet CO2 emissions – a challenge that Ford bosses describe as “waiting for a solution”.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-ford-focus-rs-hinges-hybrid-system-breakthrough

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On 08/02/2020 at 16:55, Panther said:

That's unlikely. It all has to be just in time, that's why Europe still has a car industry. If you are a Tier 1 supplier you need to have plants in every region. Tier 2 follows. It's basically about steel and rubber.

Modern cars need lots of electronics for all the toys we now expect to be fitted as standard.

It's a bit more complex than steel and rubber...

 

XYY

 

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35 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

Modern cars need lots of electronics for all the toys we now expect to be fitted as standard.

It's a bit more complex than steel and rubber...

XYY

 

When push comes to shove the ability to build a/any car might become important. Mot of the dons I presume are plug and play at the factory and require no previous programming, but you do need the core board modules to run the engine and main controls / display.  The niceties can be pre-sold at initial sale at discounted price to be fitted later, second sourcing for components from the core boards/sensors would be the priority.

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1 hour ago, The XYY Man said:

Modern cars need lots of electronics for all the toys we now expect to be fitted as standard.

It's a bit more complex than steel and rubber...

 

XYY

 

I accept that point but I have frequently read that "toys we ... expect" line in the motoring press with no right to reply.

Well here it is:

I don't want those toys. Most people to whom I speak don't want those toys with the usual reaction being "it's just more to go wrong".

Going back a bit my Dad had a top of the range Renault Safrane. It was a great powerful luxury car but it was chock full of unwanted electrics. When he came to sell it the buyer asked what one panel of switches did and he confessed that he had no idea.

That's why I wanted a Dacia: that it isn't stuffed with unwanted electrics all waiting to go wrong.

As it is I'm probably going to buy a micro camper next so the Dacia will have to wait for a bit.

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I agree @Frank Hovis. I don't want useless tat on a vehicle. I have already expressed my displeasure at those plastic Satanic discharge headlamps. I just want the vehicle, with cheap replacement wearing parts like BULB (Halfords £3). Unfortunately punters want to buy all this tat, including £500 replacement headlamps, and electronic novelties that will be obsolete in 3 years.

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10 hours ago, onlyme said:

When push comes to shove the ability to build a/any car might become important. Mot of the dons I presume are plug and play at the factory and require no previous programming, but you do need the core board modules to run the engine and main controls / display.  The niceties can be pre-sold at initial sale at discounted price to be fitted later, second sourcing for components from the core boards/sensors would be the priority.

 

Try fitting eight airbags, their ECU and assorted Side Impact Sensors yourself. Best of luck with that one.

And a lot of ECUs are connected to a master CAN controller. That will need reprogramming if ECUs it is expecting to talk to aren't there.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "toys" as that implies stuff you could do without. Modern cars rely on electronics more than most people realise. 

 

9 hours ago, Frank Hovis said:

I accept that point but I have frequently read that "toys we ... expect" line in the motoring press with no right to reply.

Well here it is:

I don't want those toys. Most people to whom I speak don't want those toys with the usual reaction being "it's just more to go wrong".

Going back a bit my Dad had a top of the range Renault Safrane. It was a great powerful luxury car but it was chock full of unwanted electrics. When he came to sell it the buyer asked what one panel of switches did and he confessed that he had no idea.

That's why I wanted a Dacia: that it isn't stuffed with unwanted electrics all waiting to go wrong.

As it is I'm probably going to buy a micro camper next so the Dacia will have to wait for a bit.

See above answer. VW in particular like every third-party sensor/ECU to be routed to their master CAN controller. Your speedo doesn't work on a mechanical cable these days - electronic signals from all sorts of sensors feed into to your dashboard via CAN. If they are not fitted, you car will be useless.

8 hours ago, MrPin said:

I agree @Frank Hovis. I don't want useless tat on a vehicle. I have already expressed my displeasure at those plastic Satanic discharge headlamps. I just want the vehicle, with cheap replacement wearing parts like BULB (Halfords £3). Unfortunately punters want to buy all this tat, including £500 replacement headlamps, and electronic novelties that will be obsolete in 3 years.

I agree wholeheartedly. But you are also getting essential tat such as speed and temperature information being fed into the master controller via electronic means. Your lights not working will be the least of your problems if they are not fitted...

 

XYY

 

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I'm seriously starting to think that either an S1 Elise or a Caterham might be the best long term car. Both simple and enough of them around for aftermarket parts to be plentiful.

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13 minutes ago, The XYY Man said:

 

Try fitting eight airbags, their ECU and assorted Side Impact Sensors yourself. Best of luck with that one.

And a lot of ECUs are connected to a master CAN controller. That will need reprogramming if ECUs it is expecting to talk to aren't there.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "toys" as that implies stuff you could do without. Modern cars rely on electronics more than most people realise. 

 

Yes, I was specifically referring to toys part. Stuff like safety features, ECUs could be reprogrammed pretty quickly for airbags, engine controls would be more problematic but they are getting hacked and reprogrammed by third parties all the time so not rocket science  and a total lack of supply across manufacturers then heavy lobbying would get a waiver for a period I would have thoughtful safety features / emission controls if it really meant no cars off the manufacturing lines across countries/lines across the world. Core components that stop the car running, different matter, second source. Like you said though you don't want to be the first supplier / manufacturer to have to dance that dance.

 

As far as IC's, processors, other electronic components think of all the places across the world with fabs producing at lot of which basically goes into electronic tat, they'd jump at the chance for second sourcing supply of car market work at the right price/contract.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants

Edited by onlyme

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2 hours ago, Rare Bear said:

I'm seriously starting to think that either an S1 Elise or a Caterham might be the best long term car. Both simple and enough of them around for aftermarket parts to be plentiful.

Funnily enough, my two top choices that I've considered as my next motor for that very reason (always fancied an S1 Elise but could never have considered it when they first came out)

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1 minute ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

Funnily enough, my two top choices that I've considered as my next motor for that very reason (always fancied an S1 Elise but could never have considered it when they first came out)

I've had one before, traded it for an S1 Exige. I'd call the Elise a sensible car. The only electroy bit us the ECU and there is a good aftermarket replacement, the Emerald. All the other mechanical bits are pretty readily available and in my experience the K series is pretty robust if yoyy warm it up gently before you thrash it and let it cool gradually. Nicest steering and brakes ever.

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1 minute ago, MrLibertyRedux said:

Funnily enough, my two top choices that I've considered as my next motor for that very reason (always fancied an S1 Elise but could never have considered it when they first came out)

I've had one before, traded it for an S1 Exige. I'd call the Elise a sensible car. The only electroy bit us the ECU and there is a good aftermarket replacement, the Emerald. All the other mechanical bits are pretty readily available and in my experience the K series is pretty robust if yoyy warm it up gently before you thrash it and let it cool gradually. Nicest steering and brakes ever.

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